PLAN Sovremenny DDG 136, 137, 138 & 139 Thread

[damitch300]

Trust me i served on the M frigates Van Speijk and Van Amstel.
Whe. we went into the docks (Van Speijk) for midlife ugrade, it looked as bad as the sovremenny.
Neglecting and no maintenance on the outside.
I have seen a picture of the Belgium Leopold to for an addition of its helo pad. It looked even worse.

It doesnt say anything of its state. Only its age.

And Russia has its climate on the worse side (assuming its on the wrong side of russia?)

It took us a year to refurbish and requip the small frigate.
So 4 years is enough for a Sov.

But the question is. Will they?
Replaced their budget to the kirovs and new frigates.
Wernt the adm gorschkov(i know i suck at names) to be replacing these 80s sovs?

 

[Jeff Head]

Guys...get back OT.

This thread is not about Russian Sovs. Take that to the Russian Military Thread.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THOS MODERATION.

 

[MwRYum]

Better question is, such massive and radical modernization effort has no precedent anywhere, right? The only merit is the immediate availability of hulls with high displacement potential.

 

[taxiya]

The only merit is the immediate availability of hulls with high displacement potential.

I have the same question and still not conviced of its worthness even though experienced members have explained to me otherwise.

The question is what does an empty hull worth compared to everything else which is going to be replaced? Upgrading is only cost efficient to a point, over that it is cheapter to build new because removing, dismantling also cost manhours.

 

[lucretius]

4 shipyard assembly halls not taken up.

You could of course build 4 more 052D's and scrap the Sov's. but you will be 4 hulls short until they are built and commissioned.

It's a quicker way of upgrading capability and maintaining numbers

 

[FarkTypeSoldier]

4 shipyard assembly halls not taken up.

You could of course build 4 more 052D's and scrap the Sov's. but you will be 4 hulls short until they are built and commissioned.

It's a quicker way of upgrading capability and maintaining numbers

The PLAN Sovs were bought from the newly restructured Russian Navy after the fall of Soviet Union in 1990s. Then the PLAN realised the need of modern vessels to strengthen its fleet ASW capabilities to counter the US fleet in the Taiwan Straits. Under such circumstances, even when the PLAN's naval budget were considered low and national industrial capabilities were still in its infancy, still it insisted to purchase 136 and 137 first.

This is because the Sovs were considered the most advance in Chinese context. Its weaponary, navigation systems and radar systems were what it doesn't have in the then PLAN inventory. Equipped with the Chinese Sovs, it enables the PLAN to have trained a dozen batches of ship captains, training the crews on hands on experience in operating a modern warship in a modern naval scenario.

Hence, from 1990s to 2000s, it had solved the area which PLAN was weak on.

Now, the PLAN possessed the capabilities to built its own advance fleet, the Sovs are considered outdated in terms of its radar systems, AA capabilities, however these Chinese Sov doesn't seem to fade off from the stage too. A modern upgrade in the weaker areas would have enhanced its fleets with more capital ships and the means to strike at enemy's warship should there be a conflict at sea.

As a consequence, the PLAN would not have obsolete ships but rather enhanced combatants. These Sovs were considered high technology in the past due to its long range strike abilities; In modern context, it would make more sense to upgrade them and enhance their weak areas while still maintaining the strike ability.

 

[snake65]

This is because the Sovs were considered the most advance in Chinese context. Its weaponary, navigation systems and radar systems were what it doesn't have in the then PLAN inventory. Equipped with the Chinese Sovs, it enables the PLAN to have trained a dozen batches of ship captains, training the crews on hands on experience in operating a modern warship in a modern naval scenario.

There are some other considerations why Project 956 destroyer was chosen over Project 1155 frigate. No doubt that PLAN would loved to have the quite advanced ASW Polynome sonar suite and Lesorub CIS, but it would be coming at some cost. First of all, 1155 is a gas turbine ship (using two different types of turbines for cruise and full speed and a complicated reductor), while 956 essentially uses an upgraded steam boiler powertrain of China's 051 destroyers and would be much easier to introduce. Second, 1155 has a very advanced SAM, but it's a self-defence system, while 956 has an area-defense SAM and we can see that it has been chosen also for 054A frigates with a more advanced VLS launcher. Third, of course, was the Band Stand OTH FCS combined with Moskit and we can see Band Stand adopted on many other PLAN ships for OTH targeting of ASM. The main gun of 956 most probably has been used as a prototype for the new single 130mm gun for PLAN. The last and not the least was the price and the availability of the unfinished 956s.

All in all, PLAN made a very wise choice.

 

[Jeff Head]

There are some other considerations why Project 956 destroyer was chosen over Project 1155 frigate. No doubt that PLAN would loved to have the quite advanced ASW Polynome sonar suite and Lesorub CIS, but it would be coming at some cost. First of all, 1155 is a gas turbine ship (using two different types of turbines for cruise and full speed and a complicated reductor), while 956 essentially uses an upgraded steam boiler powertrain of China's 051 destroyers and would be much easier to introduce. Second, 1155 has a very advanced SAM, but it's a self-defence system, while 956 has an area-defense SAM and we can see that it has been chosen also for 054A frigates with a more advanced VLS launcher. Third, of course, was the Band Stand OTH FCS combined with Moskit and we can see Band Stand adopted on many other PLAN ships for OTH targeting of ASM. The main gun of 956 most probably has been used as a prototype for the new single 130mm gun for PLAN. The last and not the least was the price and the availability of the unfinished 956s.

All in all, PLAN made a very wise choice.

I agree completely.

The Sovs, even without the upgrade/refit, would remain a very capable and dangerous surface combatant.

I have to admit, this I am very interested in seeing exactly what systems they improve and replace in this refit. The PLAN knows what it is about at this point and they have shown themselves more than capable of taking a good platform...and making it better for their needs.

 

[MwRYum]

The Sovs, even without the upgrade/refit, would remain a very capable and dangerous surface combatant.

Effective against navies that lacks ability to deal with satuation attacks from supersonic missiles like the Moskit, but in the East Asia theater of operation, such player is getting slim; and back then the numbers only enough for USN to "give it a thought" but still not enough to tip the balance fully in China's favour. And now, ships with more capable area SAM defense joining the fleet, and including the potential of LACM capability, the four Project 956 ships - fulfill the capability gap when PLAN couldn't do so with domestic solution - really shows its age.

I have to admit, this I am very interested in seeing exactly what systems they improve and replace in this refit. The PLAN knows what it is about at this point and they have shown themselves more than capable of taking a good platform...and making it better for their needs.

Even have said that, true facelift to get the Project 956 into 21st century battlefield would need some major surgery to be performed, alas to this point the evidence all pointing towards servicing and overhaul the various major / secondary components only. If they tore down the "B" station superstructure to make flush the deck for VLS, or something more, then we're talking.

 

[Blitzo]

Even have said that, true facelift to get the Project 956 into 21st century battlefield would need some major surgery to be performed, alas to this point the evidence all pointing towards servicing and overhaul the various major / secondary components only. If they tore down the "B" station superstructure to make flush the deck for VLS, or something more, then we're talking.

At present I don't think we know just how extensive its refit will be.
They've removed the arm missile launchers, they've removed the Moskit launchers, they've even removed the main gun, and are in the process the ship's sensors, and internally they have probably removed many of the internal electronics.

If they replace all those with modern equivalents, such as VLS in place of arm launchers, YJ-12 launchers in place of Moskit, PJ-38 gun in place of AK-130, refit of sensors and internal electronics with modern equivalents, I would consider that to be very major surgery.

At this stage we don't know if they are merely removing the original systems to "service" them or if they are looking to replace them entirely, so I don't think we can really judge the extent of the refit as of yet.