PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Western governments operate in the open. National executives and their cabinets have to generate papers that define national strategy for debate in their parliaments or Congress, as the case may be. Weapons purchases have to be justified by the strategic aims in these papers, and lawmakers can and do challenge the military authorities to justify the need for expensive systems. It is a largely open process and everyone in the entire world is able to watch the debate. Aside from certain technologies and actual war plans, very little is done in secret. I could crash this site with the volumes of procurement documents, aircraft and missile manuals, military training manuals, every instruction under the sun, that is considered to be public knowledge. You can buy an F/A-18E/F Natops manual on CD for under ten bucks on line! Every enthsiast should have one :) When we sell systems to Israel or Saudi Arabia there is passionate public debate in Congress whether to authorize these sales and what equipment we should allow out of our borders. Editorial writers write critical, sometimes harshly critical, op-ed pieces on policy for their readers to consider. It is a very public process.
With China by comparison nobody knows what the debate is. Nobody knows who China considers a threat and why and how their arms purchases fit into their national strategy. Of course China has no obligation to relay this information to the world, but then it has to consider that absent some good information, her neighbors may assume the worst intentions from her, which under some unforeseen set of circumstances could lead to a preventable tragedy at worst, or a lot of wasted resources at the very least. When you have to second guess a potential opponent one tends to want to err on the side of safety, costing you money and potentially angering your adversary.

What is the national strategy of building 3rd generation stealth planes? Where is the public debate about black projects that eat away billion of dollars? Where was the public knowledge regarding the phantom Iraqi special weapons programs and who knows what the US war plans are for Iran and Taiwan? Where is the disclosure about people going from the private sector into the public sector and acting in the interest of their alumi corporation?

Public disclosure is fine, as long as it stops with policy. If public disclosure affects policy, then it stops. America has no problems announcing every little details about the performance of the F-22, because the plane has no peers, therefore revealing its performance does no detriment to policy but rather enhances it. But during the cold war, where was the disclosure of the F/A-117?

For China, the reason for non-disclosure is the same. Being a technologically weaker party, aspects about its military must be secret to provide an element of surprise. Surprise is an element that not even stronger nations can lose, let alone weaker nations.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

(rant, skip if not interested)

If we're done bashing man overboard...

He's merely pointing out that the arms procurement policy in the US is far more open to public scrutiny than China. In the US we get to read stuff like this:
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The public gets to see the debates and smack-downs from Gates to Carlson over the F-22. This kind of stuff pushes US toward one extreme of openness and press freedom, and China's tight-lipped policy pushes toward the other extreme in lack of openness.

From American point of view, China's military affairs is secretive from lack of openness. Is that a fair assessment? The answer shows a cultural clash. If you've ever heard people say that when you talk to an Asian, he listens and learns about everything but speaks little, versus an American blabs everything but listens to little, you'd know what I'm referring to.

The Chinese developed many marvelous technologies, inventions, science, medicine, and learnings over thousands of years. But much of it was lost because either people didn't value the creation, or the creator himself kept it a secrete for self-benefit.

Americans, on the other hand, created the internet, perhaps the ultimate form of extrovert/exhibitionist behavior where everyone blabs about everything. Everyone here on SDF forum is currently benefiting from this invention and free exchange of information.

No, being more open won't necessarily change someone's perception of you, if their eye glasses were colored to begin with. But you don't do it for other's sake, you do it to help yourself and your civilization.
 
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RedMercury

Junior Member
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Idiotic to give one of your biggest threats information which will compromise your defenses. Sun Zi would roll in his grave. It is as simple as that.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Idiotic to give one of your biggest threats information which will compromise your defenses. Sun Zi would roll in his grave. It is as simple as that.


Keep in mind your answer is a typical representation of the cultural and philosophical impediment in Chinese culture that inherently is preventive of military transparency. Take your answer and multiply with the numbers of the common people, the people in the PLA, in the Party and in the leadership.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Idiotic to give one of your biggest threats information which will compromise your defenses. Sun Zi would roll in his grave. It is as simple as that.
Not idiotic if you intend the message to be one of showing the competitor how fruitless it would be to go up against those defenses. In that regard, it helps preserve the peace.

On the other hand, there are also secrets that the US military and other officials clamp down on and hold back and do not allow to be so openly discussed which it keeps as a trump card. We all know the US has had certain black projects which, outside of rumors, were not officially revealed for many years.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Yes, of course, but you say it as if it is a bad thing :D

While I agree releasing some information has deterrent effects, keeping peace and winning war are two different, possibly conflicting, objectives. I still stand by my previous statement.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Yes, of course, but you say it as if it is a bad thing :D

While I agree releasing some information has deterrent effects, keeping peace and winning war are two different, possibly conflicting, objectives. I still stand by my previous statement.
Actually...not meant to be a bad thing at all. I believe it is an extemely good thing...that is releasing info so your competitors know of your dominance in an area.

As to winning a war and keeping the peace being in conflict...well of course they are while the war is going on. While it is going on, you must fight to win and avoid defeat or destruction. But by winning it, you can certainly hasten the peace.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

The key issue is knowing when to trumpet and when not to.

Nuclear weapons is something you need to trumpet, because it is in their publicity that you have the most political and strategic effects.

Sun Zi never had nuclear weapons, but if he did...
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

This piece of news seems to confirm a JL-2 test launch from an 094.


094六千公里外射巨浪2 误差仅十五公尺惊动世界! (2008-06-11 11:43:19)
标签:军事
台湾国安局长许惠佑5日证实,中国大陆日前试射了094型晋级潜艇“巨浪-2”洲际反卫星弹道导弹,该潜艇最大水下排水量一万吨,据称整体战力可与美国俄亥俄级核潜艇匹敌。

  《中国时报》报道,“巨浪-2”洲际弹道导弹是从陆基型的“东风-31”型改良而成,最大射程可以达到八千公里,包括美国全境都将纳入射程范围。这种导弹加入服役,无疑将强化中国大陆的核战力。

中国大陆2006年6月从黄海地区一艘晋级核潜艇,向六千公里外大陆戈壁沙漠发射“巨浪-2”弹道导弹试射,而且试射成功,据称误差在十五公尺之内。

  晋级核战略导弹潜艇于1995年7月正式服役,可装载16枚改良型射程长达一万公里“巨浪-2”多弹头潜射导弹,同时能打击至少48个目标,战力等同四艘夏级战略导弹潜艇。而中国大陆近年来积极发展潜射型反卫星武器,其发射平台就是晋级核能潜艇,经由发射安装反卫星装置的“巨浪-2”弹道导弹,攻击敌方卫星。

  而094级核潜艇因具有噪音小、隐密性高、机动性大、生存力强与导弹射程远等特点,其建造与服役时间备受西方各国关注,美国军方人士在接受国际媒体专访时甚至表示,六艘094级潜艇一旦部署完毕,中国水下战略核力量将提升至“全新水平”,并具有涵盖整个欧亚大陆、澳洲与北美的核打击能力。

  目前中国大陆已经至少有二艘晋级核潜艇的曝光,使西方军事专家更加确信中国大陆发展潜射反卫星武器已经有初步能力。
 

King_Comm

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Re: New base for the Type 094 subs?

Second half is dubious, it says that 094 entered service in 1996 and carries 16 JL-2's.
 
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