PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

Blackstone said:

Agreed. Obama administration is trying to have it both ways; carry water for Vietnam and Philippines while claiming neutrality in territorial disputes. Problem is, everyone could see the leaky bucket Washington is using to carry water, least of all China and Taiwan Province.

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the ''leaky bucket'' of the United States is old news. when it comes to taiwan, the ROC's interests in the SCS and DYT islands, they have been royally screwed by the United States over and over again. President Ma Yingjeou had planned to visit Taiping Island in December the taiwan press had a list of journalists who applied to go with him on that visit, it was cancelled because from pressure from the American Institute of Taiwan. The US is pressuring taiwan to give up it's claim to it's 11 dotted line but Ma yingjeou refused. This isn't striking news everyone who pays attention to the TW media should know this. The United States need to put a gag on Taiwan because it's claim on the DYT and SCS is identical to the mainland and Taiwan is never allowed to have a common stance with the mainland in this matter. so in simplest terms, in order to contain china, screw taiwan. since Taiwan is pressured to sit out of the SCS drama, they cheer on the mainland albeit discreetly.

President Ma yingjeou going to visit Taiping Island is the last good thing he can do before he leaves office. No matter how incompetent he was as a President, he's still a chinese patriot in heart, you can't say the same for alot of those ''green'' clowns we have in the DPP. For this alone Ma yingjeou deserves respect.

mr.bean said:

President Ma yingjeou going to visit Taiping Island is the last good thing he can do before he leaves office. No matter how incompetent he was as a President, he's still a chinese patriot in heart, you can't say the same for alot of those ''green'' clowns we have in the DPP. For this alone Ma yingjeou deserves respect.

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Good point.

Its a sad irony that the only time democratically elected politicians ever do anything selflessly good is at the very end of their political careers, when they have nothing else left to loose to hold them back from doing the right thing.

It is also a sad state of affairs that so many people in Taiwan are so brainwashed that they cannot even recognise who has their best interests in mind. They would praise foreigners as they carve away pieces of Taiwan and spit on mainland China for trying to protect their birthright of all Chinese.

mr.bean said:

President Ma yingjeou going to visit Taiping Island is the last good thing he can do before he leaves office. No matter how incompetent he was as a President, he's still a chinese patriot in heart, you can't say the same for alot of those ''green'' clowns we have in the DPP. For this alone Ma yingjeou deserves respect.

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The irony is that Ma Yingjeou's doctoral dissertation at Harvard was about Diaoyu Islands and had earned his early fame for "fighting" for the return of Diaoyu Islands to ROC. He could not and did not have the courage to do much, when he became President of ROC, about either DYI or SCS.

Taiwan, in many ways, is like a confused and lost child.

weig2000 said:

The irony is that Ma Yingjeou's doctoral dissertation at Harvard was about Diaoyu Islands and had earned his early fame for "fighting" for the return of Diaoyu Islands to ROC. He could not and did not have the courage to do much, when he became President of ROC, about either DYI or SCS.

Taiwan, in many ways, is like a confused and lost child.

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Which just goes to prove policy forming and actual governing are two completely different things. Ma is KMT and not DPP, so I'm sure he'd die before giving up Diaoyu. On the other hand, he has to govern a province in rebellion, with few real friends around the world that wouldn't desert when the chips are down, so he can't really push things too hard with Washington.

plawolf said:

Its a sad irony that the only time democratically elected politicians ever do anything selflessly good is at the very end of their political careers, when they have nothing else left to loose to hold them back from doing the right thing.

It is also a sad state of affairs that so many people in Taiwan are so brainwashed that they cannot even recognise who has their best interests in mind. They would praise foreigners as they carve away pieces of Taiwan and spit on mainland China for trying to protect their birthright of all Chinese.

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I think it's unfair to use the word brainwashed in this context (or indeed any context) as it de-legitimates the opinions that a particular side holds, and despite my own strong opinions of the Taiwan issue I also do appreciate the fact that many people from Taiwan do strongly have interests which are leading them towards a feeling of greater self autonomy.

The question in coming years will be whether that desire of greater self autonomy will be cause greater moves towards formal political autonomy, and also whether any such moves end up being positive or negative for Taiwan in an economic sense, and how much the population would be interested in pursuing their own self perceived uniqueness in relation to economic prosperity and growth.

Blackstone said:

Agreed. Obama administration is trying to have it both ways; carry water for Vietnam and Philippines while claiming neutrality in territorial disputes. Problem is, everyone could see the leaky bucket Washington is using to carry water, least of all China and Taiwan Province.

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It was bottomless bucket to begin with by the administration.

Bltizo said:

I think it's unfair to use the word brainwashed in this context (or indeed any context) as it de-legitimates the opinions that a particular side holds, and despite my own strong opinions of the Taiwan issue I also do appreciate the fact that many people from Taiwan do strongly have interests which are leading them towards a feeling of greater self autonomy.

The question in coming years will be whether that desire of greater self autonomy will be cause greater moves towards formal political autonomy, and also whether any such moves end up being positive or negative for Taiwan in an economic sense, and how much the population would be interested in pursuing their own self perceived uniqueness in relation to economic prosperity and growth.

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Without going OT too much, in both Taiwan and Hong Kong there is definitely heavy influence of Cold War and colonialism propaganda in blaming the PRC for all things bad and a self-hatred or denial of these people's Chinese heritage. Mostly these prejudices are used to mask these people's fears for their wealth based egoism and their outdated political egotism in a changing world, at the same time being unable or unwilling to confront the local causes of their socio-economic woes.

It also helps to remember that large segments of the population in both Taiwan and Hong Kong are either directly or descendants of what can be considered the "losing sides" of China's many internal conflicts of the previous century and a half, ongoing considering the continued separation of the PRC and ROC, so there is plenty of familial and/or personal prejudice to go around as well.

PanAsian said:

... a self-hatred or denial of these people's Chinese heritage. Mostly these prejudices are used to mask these people's fears for their wealth based egoism and their outdated political egotism in a changing world....

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Okay, that's enough of this kind of talk.

This is a GROSS generalization.

I spent a LOT of time in Taiwan in the 1990s. While there, I did not get the impression or idea that they had any kind of self-hatred for their Chinese heritage, background ,or culture.

To the contrary, they were always talking to me about the National Museum where so many artifacts and historical documents that had been brought over to the Island as they escaped the mainland to preserve them from the cultural purge that took place under Mao.

They were very proud of it and took me to that museum to show me numerous historical, cultural, and heritage items on several occasions.

I spent less time in Hong Kong so cannot speak as strongly there...though when going there (it was still under British control then) I also did not notice anything like this...though my involvement was not as seep or prolonged as it was in Taiwan.

Let's be very careful about generalizing people like this...that sort of thing is specifically against SD rules in any case.

Jeff Head said:

Okay, that's enough of this kind of talk.

This is a GROSS generalization.

I spent a LOT of time in Taiwan in the 1990s. While there, I did not get the impression or idea that they had any kind of self-hatred for their Chinese heritage, background ,or culture.

To the contrary, they were always talking to me about the National Museum where so many artifacts and historical documents that had been brought over to the Island as they escaped the mainland to preserve them from the cultural purge that took place under Mao.

They were very proud of it and took me to that museum to show me numerous historical, cultural, and heritage items on several occasions.

I spent less time in Hong Kong so cannot speak as strongly there...though when going there (it was still under British control then) I also did not notice anything like this...though my involvement was not as seep or prolonged as it was in Taiwan.

Let's be very careful about generalizing people like this...that sort of thing is specifically against SD rules in any case.

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I don't mean to generalize the entire population but a vociferous large enough minority is highly prejudiced. I grew up in Hong Kong before immigrating to the US with a lot of family and friends still there and also have many Taiwanese friends. I have spent significant time in both places and had in depth conversations with a good number of people who still live in those places about related topics. Then again it's just my personal anecdotal experience and end OT.