PLAN SCS Bases/Islands/Vessels (Not a Strategy Page)

plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
ahadicow said:
Perfect example of Chinese diplomatic behavior that prioritize face over interest. That's why the tactic Philippine uses that starts with threatening and shaming would get them nowhere with China. On the contrary, what Vietnam did was silently moved on to those islands and doing their "claim by factual control" scheme.
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It's not about 'face', but principle. Not directed at you, but I do hate it when westerners half learn the most basic of concepts and then go projecting their shallow, one-dimensional and quasi-racist BS on China and assume the only things China cares about is money/resources or 'face'.

In western eyes, China's territorial disputes are all either about resources or 'face', when in fact the only real factor at play is principle.

You can cry and whine and make a scene, or you can sneak onto an island and set up a fort, neither will ever get China to back down. The only way to settle territorial disputes with China is through negotiation. Trying anything else will only be counter productive as it will erode Chinese goodwill, so China won't offer you an inch in concessions.
 
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ahadicow

Junior Member
plawolf said:
It's not about 'face', but principle. Not directed at you, but I do hate it when westerners half learn the most basic of concepts and then go projecting their shallow, one-dimensional and quasi-racist BS on China and assume the only things China cares about is money/resources or 'face'.

In western eyes, China's territorial disputes are all either about resources or 'face', when in fact the only real factor at play is principle.

You can cry and whine and make a scene, or you can sneak onto an island and set up a fort, neither will ever get China to back down. The only way to settle territorial disputes with China is through negotiation. Trying anything else will only be counter productive as it will erode Chinese goodwill, so China won't offer you an inch in concessions.
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"face" and principle in chinese culture goes hand in hand and don't forget what happened with Bailongwei was in soviet era, the China in those day really do not have an independant foreign outlook. China today won't give you supplies let along an island just because you're their "communist comrade". I won't say it lacks principle, but it supplimented those principles with a whole lot more pragmatism.

Yes, western analysis is funny to watch especially when they try to project themsalves onto chinese. All those talks about China "flexing its military muscle" I mean !?????? Have you ever seen a chinese man flexing his muscle? A chinese would never flex their muscle in front of the enemy, they are well-mannered and inconspicious and silently ploting your downfall. When they move, it's usually a cut to the throat. so I guess "the lack of transparency" charge is legit.
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
China's outpost at Mischief Reef has evolved since the Philippines first discovered some Chinese activity in the 1990s.

First there were just three huts on stilts for fishermen.

Spratly Islands - Mischief Reef.jpg

Then there was a three story building and long, wooden covered area.

Spratly Islands - Mischief Reef2.jpg

The most recent picture show several changes. The number of huts has been increased to five. The wooden covered area is gone. And the three story building has been rebuilt.

Spratly Islands - Mischief Reef3.jpgSpratly Islands - Mischief Reef6.jpg

Notice how the loading dock and its stairway has changed positions. The new building itself is larger than before and closer to the huts.

This image shows Mischief Reef from space. The PLAN has dredged a canal to allow larger boats to access the fort. Can anyone find it on Google Earth?

o1eer.jpg
 
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pendragon

Junior Member
Anyone has any info abouth the marines on garrison duty in spratly garrisons?
duration of deployment?, specific selection? specific duty's? training? equipment?
how about visits by plan patrolships? Resupply?
looks to me to be a long and lonesome job, even with internet, video etc. ...
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
pendragon, I have the same questions! I guess they do some repairs on the equipment, a few weapons drills, some target practice, but I can't imagine what else. The forts don't have their own boats so they can't go out on patrol. Maybe they spend time fishing, playing cards, fantasizing about good food and beautiful women back home, etc.

Vietnam's newspapers often publicize resupply visits to their islands. Vietnam does it right: resupply missions aren't just for resupply, they're major morale-boosting and propaganda operations. Government dignitaries, academics, students, and even monks visit the island. They play games, sing songs, shake hands, and make a big deal out of it. But China's resupply missions are strictly business and completely unpublicized. China is missing an opportunity to boost the morale of and humanize their marines posted on far-flung posts. Living on those forts is a great human interest story that Vietnam publicizes but China does not.
 
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joshuatree

Captain
Geographer said:
pendragon, I have the same questions! I guess they do some repairs on the equipment, a few weapons drills, some target practice, but I can't imagine what else. The forts don't have their own boats so they can't go out on patrol. Maybe they spend time fishing, playing cards, fantasizing about good food and beautiful women back home, etc.

Vietnam's newspapers often publicize resupply visits to their islands. Vietnam does it right: resupply missions aren't just for resupply, they're major morale-boosting and propaganda operations. Government dignitaries, academics, students, and even monks visit the island. They play games, sing songs, shake hands, and make a big deal out of it. But China's resupply missions are strictly business and completely unpublicized. China is missing an opportunity to boost the morale of and humanize their marines posted on far-flung posts. Living on those forts is a great human interest story that Vietnam publicizes but China does not.
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I would say mission objective #1 for the marines is to maintain point of presence. That's not to say providing additional recreational opportunities is wrong. Perhaps increased resupply visits (much more CG vessels being launched and patrolling these days), increased diversity in food supplies, increased media availability, shorter rotation shifts, and maybe even providing a RHIB or two (a stripped down type 037 once they get replaced by the 056s? :p).

However, making it into summer camp with publicity is not. Unlike Vietnam, China doesn't need the publicity of having a military presence at remote outposts given all the negative portrayal in Western media. If anything, publicizing troops on these outposts would probably simply work in the favor of Vietnamese and Filipino propagandists - "Oooo, look at the evil big bully". So as long as the troops are treated right during their deployments and more so at home, that is plenty sufficient.

What publicity is needed is for the Chinese CG to conduct more humanitarian assistance with all fishermen and vessels in the area such as search and rescue. That's counters the bully spin being portrayed.
 
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pendragon

Junior Member
Geographer said:
pendragon, I have the same questions! I guess they do some repairs on the equipment, a few weapons drills, some target practice, but I can't imagine what else. The forts don't have their own boats so they can't go out on patrol. Maybe they spend time fishing, playing cards, fantasizing about good food and beautiful women back home, etc.

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Well, I don't think they'll be doing any live firing practice, you don't want to upset the neighbours after daddy has done his best to get friendly with them! And I haven's seen any pictures of garrison members swimming or fishing and since these would be great propaganda foto's ... that's probably prohibited too.

But it would make sence to select and train them to withstand longterm service in restricted environment, similar to submarine-crew or ICBM-operators (maybe these marines should be trained to become astronauts LOL ).

so besides a splendid view (you don't notice anylonger after 3 days on location) it's universal boredom?

PS: I noticed the absence of solarcollectors and windturbines; this makes the garrison exclusively dependant on (diesel?) generators!
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Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
This picture of Mischief Reef shows a wind turbine although I doubt it's enough to power the whole facility.

Spratly Islands - Mischief Reef7.jpg

The Vietnamese forts have numerous solar panels but again I doubt it's enough to power their outposts.
 
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pendragon

Junior Member
joshuatree said:
I would say mission objective #1 for the marines is to maintain point of presence. That's not to say providing additional recreational opportunities is wrong. Perhaps increased resupply visits (much more CG vessels being launched and patrolling these days), increased diversity in food supplies, increased media availability, shorter rotation shifts, and maybe even providing a RHIB or two (a stripped down type 037 once they get replaced by the 056s? :p).

However, making it into summer camp with publicity is not. Unlike Vietnam, China doesn't need the publicity of having a military presence at remote outposts given all the negative portrayal in Western media. If anything, publicizing troops on these outposts would probably simply work in the favor of Vietnamese and Filipino propagandists - "Oooo, look at the evil big bully". So as long as the troops are treated right during their deployments and more so at home, that is plenty sufficient.

What publicity is needed is for the Chinese CG to conduct more humanitarian assistance with all fishermen and vessels in the area such as search and rescue. That's counters the bully spin being portrayed.
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I agree that it is a mission of maintaining (military) presence; but that should not exclude providing your marines with some more 'space' and commodities given the long term "in situ". Also if, in a worst case scenario, you would have to face an armed conflict, people back home will not back you if it's just about some rocks and some small buildings. You wil have to create a positive idea of 'it's ours' and the will to eventually defend this! You do not create such an emotion by just putting down a couple of miniature oilrigs and small barracks occupied with some anonymous servicemen.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
pendragon said:
....PS: I noticed the absence of solarcollectors and windturbines; this makes the garrison exclusively dependant on (diesel?) generators!
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That would explain the five separate huts away from the fort structure. Although, I wonder using something like a powerbuoy further out in deep water would be suitable as it's not subjected to daylight hours and seems to have power generation capacity that will meet the outpost needs. Generators can then be backup.

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pendragon said:
I agree that it is a mission of maintaining (military) presence; but that should not exclude providing your marines with some more 'space' and commodities given the long term "in situ". Also if, in a worst case scenario, you would have to face an armed conflict, people back home will not back you if it's just about some rocks and some small buildings. You wil have to create a positive idea of 'it's ours' and the will to eventually defend this! You do not create such an emotion by just putting down a couple of miniature oilrigs and small barracks occupied with some anonymous servicemen.
Click to expand...

I didn't say don't give the troops more space or diversions, I just think not making their daily routines into some candid camera show would better help given the circumstances. Doing clips on CG patrols as well as daily life on Sansha would achieve the communication to the domestic audience without giving ammo to the external audience.
 
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