PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

As much as I love the Flankers, I think it would be much smarter for the PLAN to either go for a navalized J-10 or a Fulcrum-D. Period.

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As much as I like the J-10, it ain't going to happen. The J-10 is just taking off the ground, and needs to accomplish a lot of maturity issues first. No doubt the J-10 with the new 3D TVC 13,200kg thrust AL-31FNM-1 engine will be handful for any fighter. But there is going to be a lot of redesigning of this plane's tight frame to make it fit for carrier duty.

The Fulcrum isn't going to be accepted, being short ranged and has previously been rejected by the PLAAF. The PLANAF has no room to support the logistical burden of another new plane type.

The Flankers is a known quantity for the PLA. Given this venture is a total adventure for the PLA, it's not going to risk this with the introduction of a less mature type of plane or a new type never used by the PLAAF before. The known quantity is a needed bedrock for this adventure.

Having said this, there are risks and disadvantages. The new Su-33UB features an all new wing design that could give greater lift, but also makes the plane bigger than the Su-33. It is likely the new Su-33s will require the combination of canards and TVC to assist in the takeoff. More powerful engines based on the AL-31FM-1 should be used. And then there is the size.

If rumors are to be believed, the job of provding the planes appear to have fallen with Shenyang AC, which makes the J-11s. It would be difficult to mod the J-11s into Su-33s without Sukhoi's help. It appears China might want to manufacture the type as well under license. A carriered version of the Su-30MKK is also logical, complete with canards and TVC. Both types---carriered J-11s and Su-30MKKs, turned into new versions of the Su-33, can leverage the PLA's experience and infrastructure on using and maintaining on both Flanker types. The Su-33KUBs will still be necessary to provide a seed regiment used to train pilots.

J-8IIs have to be ruled out completely---these planes are too long for carrier duty.

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

Having said this, there are risks and disadvantages. The new Su-33UB features an all new wing design that could give greater lift, but also makes the plane bigger than the Su-33. It is likely the new Su-33s will require the combination of canards and TVC to assist in the takeoff. More powerful engines based on the AL-31FM-1 should be used. And then there is the size.

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Will fitting TVC to an Su-33 mean the plane will require a shorter takeoff run I mean isn't the main purpose of TVC to provide better manouvrability not to improve takeoff capabilities.

Also I am curious about one thing concerning TVC, how much extra weight is added through fitting this system to an aircraft?

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

TVC on russian flankers is designed to allow the aircraft to take off quickly from a carrier deck in the event that it misses the arrester wire on landing. TVC engines typically are one ton heavier than their non-tvc counterparts, but this is canceled out be the more effective thrust direction of the tvc nozzel.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

tphuang said:

From one of the Chinese boards, stating the following:
1. China has decided on the fighter for the Carriers
2. The fighter will be su-33.
3. China wishes to begin production of su-33 starting in 2007
4. China wants to purchase a su-33 production line and produce su-33 from SAC (who is currently licensed producing su-27)
5. the su-33 blueprint is already sent to SAC
6. China granted 1.6 billion RMB to SAC this year for su-33 and the development of 5th generation fighter
7. The su-33 equipping Chinese carrier is going to be superior in every aspect of performance to the ones equipping the current Russian carrier
8. I don't even feel like posting the rest. It reads less and less likely the more I read it. Although the part about ka-31 does sound likely.

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Thank you tphuang, this is similar to what I would have expected. Please let us know if you come across anything "official" that substantiates any of this information. The time frames are interesting. If they intend to start producing them in 2007...then I would expect that there would be something for them to operate from not too long after the first wings start to be formed after production and testing.

Popeye, what do you think?

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

Jeff Head said:

Thank you tphuang, this is similar to what I would have expected. Please let us know if you come across anything "official" that substantiates any of this information. The time frames are interesting. If they intend to start producing them in 2007...then I would expect that there would be something for them to operate from not too long after the first wings start to be formed after production and testing.

Popeye, what do you think?

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we sort of have a discussion on this thread on what China might use

Check it out, just amateur opinions, obviously.

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

But it's doubtfull that it will be enough to launch a fully laden Su-33UB. When you see the failure with the vanilla Flanker-D, I have my doubts about the much bigger Su-33UB. The engines would have to have something like the double amount of thrust compared to the vanilla Flanker-D, which I doubt will be aveilible.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

Jeff Head said:

Thank you tphuang, this is similar to what I would have expected. Please let us know if you come across anything "official" that substantiates any of this information. The time frames are interesting. If they intend to start producing them in 2007...then I would expect that there would be something for them to operate from not too long after the first wings start to be formed after production and testing.

Popeye, what do you think?

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Hummhph..If all the coulds, woulda, shoulda and what if's , maybes, speculation and roumor has it were true about all the PLA forces were true they would have an helluva an Army, Navy and Air Force...

So really I don't know..BUT SPECTULATION has it the a batch of Su-33 will be produced. Probaly about 36. My best guess. Then again that's all we do here? Isn't it???

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

The engines are, of course, uprated al-31f3s with improved thrust. Canards help reduce the takeoff distance required. Since the TVC engiens are used in case of bad landing, i doubt the plane would have any ordinance on it.

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

I'm not sure if the hanger picture on the Kuznetsov is the entire or the half of it. Anyway, if the Su-33 has difficulty taking off I would wonder what it can use for AshMs. Probably not at all. But more advanced engines have already been made available. For example the AL-31FNM-1 sold for the J-10 has 13,200kg thrust, more powerful than the standard AL-31F, and it has TVC. Why not a version for the Su-33 as well? Weight can be lightened through composites. That work has already been done on the Su-33UB, which at the expense of some space has larger wing area than the standard Flanker. Turning it into an even lighter single seater won't be hard. The Su-33s in the future just isn't going to be the same as the Su-33s in the past.

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

Check these pics out. rumors are that these are the power going in to the
varyag. It is also belive that these picture have more than one of these things

As u can see it's a big and long thing lifted up by the big great crain in the shipyard.