PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Gauntlet · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

crobato said:
What use are these if PLAN does not have Shipwrecks? So there is no point for having the launcher is there?

They could always just change the launchers to fire one of their own AShMs. But an air defence carrier with AShMs doesnt make much sense anyway.

People who got actual experience with ship construction:

Would it be hard to lengthen then underdeck hangar without weakining the construction of the topdeck?

crobato · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

The Chinese do not have any AshM that is vertically launched. They don't have Klinoks in any of their ships either, or any VLS based point defense missile system.

If they plan on using some VLS based system to replace the Granits and the Klinoks (SA-N-9), their best bet is the HHQ-9 systems used on 052C destroyers. Aside from rumored developments on VLS based HHQ-16 (medium range equivalent to Shtil), the HHQ-9 is currently the only VLS system the PLAN has. The place in the superstructure that could have been used for the Mars Passat radar might be a good fit for the HHQ-9 arrays.

Gollevainen · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

Now, question is: Will the PLAN get rid of the Shipwreck launcher in the forward deck to give more room for a large hangar deck?

Would it be hard to lengthen then underdeck hangar without weakining the construction of the topdeck?

Well I think you answerd by yourself to that question. I've been wondering this myself also and as more i have learned on basic strucltual mechanics and structual technics i've come to conclusion that it's propaply impossiple. Perhaps it could be done, but i think it would need completely rebuilt the ship from the hangardeck up. Sofar no such major work has been done in Dalian shipyards.

MIGleader · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

swimmerXC said:
My Chinese vocab is limited to 100 common characters..
So I wouldn't really know what they are taking about :rofl:
Maybe one of the Chinese members (that know Chinese) can translate it.. but judging from the pic, it's a bunch of Chinese people in Russia probably inspecting carriers?

I read it...nothing new at all. Just an old article telling the history of the chinese carrier program. If you want a translation, sonodefence's carrier page has a a timeline just liek this one. anyhow, this article is dated. doesnt mention anything after 2002.

renmin · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

tphuang said:
Rumour time:
中国航母舰载机方案最终敲定SU-33战机沈飞制造据悉随着中囯首艘航空母舰方案的快速推进实施,中囯人民解放军总装备部决定于2007年开始陆续装备俄罗斯建造的SU-33舰载战斗机,新年过后SU-33舰载机引进方案已最终敲定,由现在负责生产SU-27战斗机(中国称;歼-11)的沈阳飞机制造公司,负责引进一条俄罗斯SU-33舰载战斗机生产线完成工装制造,而后将全部实现国产化.目前SU-33的设计图纸已经进入沈飞.06年是沈飞技术改造年,为了配合SU-33舰载机项目和新一代重型歼击机的设计制造任务,囯家将拨16亿巨资,用以提升改造沈飞目前所有科研生产制造工艺技术设施.界时沈飞的研发制造能力将提高到一个展新的水平,据悉,07年中囯人民解放军装备的SU-33舰载战机性能,将完全超过俄罗斯海军航空母舰现在所使用的SU-33 战机性能,中方提出的标准是SU-33除了保留原有航母起降战机的技术性能外,其它空战技术性能要求接近SU-35,另据外界权威情报机构分析;为了有效确保SU-33舰载机队正常战损的补充能力及各军种空军战时战术配合支援,届时解放军空军将新组5个SU-33舰载机陆基预备中队,海军航空兵将有8个SU-33舰载机陆基预备中队.平时可定期在[瓦良格]上进行训练换防,共同完成战备值班.美Fisher）声称，2005年的许多迹象显示，中国大陆有意建造航空母舰,费学礼说，在去年夏天莫斯科航空展中，中国曾与俄罗斯讨论采购苏 -33舰载机事宜。费学礼还说;在莫斯科航空展之前，大陆访团曾参观建造“库兹涅佐夫”级航空母舰的造船局,俄罗斯公司人员并证实，大陆海军有意购买俄罗斯Kamov公司的卡-31AEW雷达预警直升机.

From one of the Chinese boards, stating the following:
1. China has decided on the fighter for the Carriers
2. The fighter will be su-33.
3. China wishes to begin production of su-33 starting in 2007
4. China wants to purchase a su-33 production line and produce su-33 from SAC (who is currently licensed producing su-27)
5. the su-33 blueprint is already sent to SAC
6. China granted 1.6 billion RMB to SAC this year for su-33 and the development of 5th generation fighter
7. The su-33 equipping Chinese carrier is going to be superior in every aspect of performance to the ones equipping the current Russian carrier
8. I don't even feel like posting the rest. It reads less and less likely the more I read it. Although the part about ka-31 does sound likely.

I belive China is also planing to arm their carriers with naval Jian-10s, WZ-9 helicopters, and Jian-8IIs now here is the question, does China have a suitable early warning plane to put on their carrier? Most of the early warining aircraft of China are a little too big for the job.

Gauntlet · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Latest Varyag Pics

And they will therefore most likely go for the capable Kamov Ka-31 "Helix-E" AEW helicopter.

The Ka-31 is used in both Russian (extremly limited numbers) and India (around 10-11) service, and would suit the PLAN needs well enough.

Gauntlet · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

Gollevainen said:
Well I think you answerd by yourself to that question. I've been wondering this myself also and as more i have learned on basic strucltual mechanics and structual technics i've come to conclusion that it's propaply impossiple. Perhaps it could be done, but i think it would need completely rebuilt the ship from the hangardeck up. Sofar no such major work has been done in Dalian shipyards.

Thank you for confirming my thoughts, Gollevainen.

That would mean that the Varyag (as the Kuznetsov) will have limited hangarspace. I dare to make an educated guess with room for something like 15 or so Flanker-Ds underdeck if you cramp them realy tight together.

I can only count 10-12 Flanker-Ds on this pic, which seems to show most of the underdeck hangar:

Now, would it make sense for the PLAN to go for a "failed" plane like the Su-33? Afterall, the Russians can only operate it with limited success due to its heavy size and lack of catapults.
As I've said numerous times: Try finding a pic of a Flanker-D taking off with a full weapon load...

As much as I love the Flankers, I think it would be much smarter for the PLAN to either go for a navalized J-10 or a Fulcrum-D. Period.

renmin · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

Gauntlet said:
Thank you for confirming my thoughts, Gollevainen.

That would mean that the Varyag (as the Kuznetsov) will have limited hangarspace. I dare to make an educated guess with room for something like 15 or so Flanker-Ds underdeck if you cramp them realy tight together.

I can only count 10-12 Flanker-Ds on this pic, which seems to show most of the underdeck hangar:

[qimg]http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9339/su33lotsofthemparkedinkuznetso.jpg[/qimg]

Now, would it make sense for the PLAN to go for a "failed" plane like the Su-33? Afterall, the Russians can only operate it with limited success due to its heavy size and lack of catapults.
As I've said numerous times: Try finding a pic of a Flanker-D taking off with a full weapon load...

As much as I love the Flankers, I think it would be much smarter for the PLAN to either go for a navalized J-10 or a Fulcrum-D. Period.

Actually, China has a huge plan to arm their carriers with J-10s, and J-8IIs to tell you the truth. The Su-33 is just a small part of the whole big operation. there is a navalized J-10 and J-8II.:china:

bd popeye · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

As for the numbers carried, I think something like 24-30 is a realistic amount. Considering the size of the planes and the small hangar space provided on the Kuznetsov/Varyag, I doubt all of these planes would be able to fit underdeck. Therefore some of the big planes would have to be carried permanently overdeck.
Is this standard in the US Navy?

I assume you mean that some planes stay on the flight deck.

Well the aircraft on a USN CV are constantly being moved for various reasons. No aircraft is deticated to remain on the flight deck. If the Russians are doing this those planes will corrode(rust) like nobodys business. The Hangar Deck on a USN CV is used to store aircraft that need maintance. It is a constant shuffle of aircraft.

As for the crowding of aircraft. The USN does the same thing despite the huge hangar deck space avaliable. A Nimitz class hangar is approxmitely 220m x 34m. And is divided into two bays. How much space is avaliabe in the hangar deck depends on several factors. Flight schedule, underway replenshiments & various other activites.

On the last big sortie this autumn, one of their most experience Flanker-D pilot crashed his plane during landing, with the plane skewing off the deck and sunk 3000m. The pilot survived though. This proves the pilots lacks training in every way when it comes to carrier operations.

I don't know the real level of Russian pilots training. I don't. But accidents with Naval aircraft do happen. Those aircraft are operating at a high tempo. The USN loses aircrfat also. An F-18 was recently lost off the USS Ronald Reagan CVN-76.

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USS Enterprise hangar deck. Not a full pic. Note the crowding.

crobato · Feb 13, 2006

Re: Video of how SU-33 could work off of a PLAN carrier

Gollevainen said:
Well I think you answerd by yourself to that question. I've been wondering this myself also and as more i have learned on basic strucltual mechanics and structual technics i've come to conclusion that it's propaply impossiple. Perhaps it could be done, but i think it would need completely rebuilt the ship from the hangardeck up. Sofar no such major work has been done in Dalian shipyards.

With only 70% of the carrier completed, I doubt the launchers were there anyway, and being uncompleted can be a blessing in disguise, since it allows you to reconstruct what is not done.

PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Gauntlet

Junior Member

crobato

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Gollevainen

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MIGleader

Banned Idiot

renmin

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Gauntlet

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Gauntlet

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renmin

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi

crobato

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