PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Jeff Head said:

Two things.

1) The Liaoning was specifically sent to that area to do formational exercises, so it is easy to presume that she naturally was meant to do so with the LPD that was there. I believe it was one of the principle reasons the exercises were held.

2) The SCS is the most likely place where the PLAN/PRC will find such operations necessary in the near to mid term.

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I disagree as well. According to PRC state media and interviews, the Liaoning was sent to SCS to conduct further experiment and testing in warmer waters. As for the LPD, it was stated by ranking military officer that it was there to simulate a replenishment/supply ship.

Aside from all that. There is little reason to send a carrier to SCS since no one in the SCS has the capacity to oppose PLA Naval power aside from the United States.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

usaf0314 said:

I disagree as well. According to PRC state media and interviews, the Liaoning was sent to SCS to conduct further experiment and testing in warmer waters. As for the LPD, it was stated by ranking military officer that it was there to simulate a replenishment/supply ship.

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To be fair, I wouldn't take state media's explanations for ship deployment for much salt.

Aside from all that. There is little reason to send a carrier to SCS since no one in the SCS has the capacity to oppose PLA Naval power aside from the United States.

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This I agree with, and is one of the reasons why I think liaoning won't be sent there for any kind of extended station any time soon.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

latenlazy said:

Ah I see. So IEPS offers no particular advantages on this matter?

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Integrated Electric Propulsion does not provide instantaneous power you mentioned either, although it would be a necessity for a carrier equipped with EMALS.

On a traditional ship, engines are mechanically connected to shafts driving the propellers. These engines do nothing other than propel the ship. There are separated auxiliary engines that power the ship's electrical system. This creates some issues.

Suppose a ship has four engines driving four propellers. All four engines must be running, even if the ship really needs the power from just two engines. One may suggest throttling the four engines to 50%, but that is inefficient and would not reduce fuel usage to 50%. If one of the engine is busted, there is no way to reroute power like they do in Star Trek, because each engine is connected up with a propeller mechanically. If the ship wants more power, it has to wait for the kettles to boil. Also, if the electric demand is just half of the peak demand, the half the auxiliary engines will just be sitting there.

Integrated Electric Propulsion merges the two separated systems together. The mechanically connection between an engine and a propeller is replaced by a electrical network that is part of the ship-wide electrical system. This enables the use two main engines to drive four propellers, or reroute power from auxiliary engines to the propellers should one main engine be damaged. Since these auxiliary engines will most likely be diesel engines, it is possible to adjust power output in a very short time.

With regards to EMALS, it would be possible to tap into the enormous power output of the main engines for charging on a ship with IEP. It is not impossible to install EMALS on a ship with traditional propulsion system, but space must be sacrificed for a few additional auxiliary engines that won't always be in use.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Bltizo said:

To be fair, I wouldn't take state media's explanations for ship deployment for much salt.

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Even if we don't trust the state media, which I completely understand. we could at least look at the facts... out of all the ships in that fleet, there is no replenishment vessel. and on top of that, it would be hard to simulate a large replenishment ship with a destroyer. the Fusu class replenishment vessel has a displacement of 37kt. the largest combat vessel in PLAN aside from the Liaoning is the Type 071 LPD, which is only 20kt. so as a simulation, it would be the closes thing to the real deal.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

usaf0314 said:

yes, but lets look at the facts. there is no nation in the SCS that would prompt China to use its carrier, much less when it is not even operational. And even if it is a show of force, there are much better equipment to show off than a carrier without its air wings.

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I agree with that, I was saying that 071 probably wasn't there simulating an AOR just because a few "experts" said so on CCTV.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Bltizo said:

I agree with that, I was saying that 071 probably wasn't there simulating an AOR just because a few "experts" said so on CCTV.

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yah sorry, i edited.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

usaf0314 said:

Even if we don't trust the state media, which I completely understand. we could at least look at the facts... out of all the ships in that fleet, there is no replenishment vessel. and on top of that, it would be hard to simulate a large replenishment ship with a destroyer. the Fusu class replenishment vessel has a displacement of 37kt. the largest combat vessel in PLAN aside from the Liaoning is the Type 071 LPD, which is only 20kt. so as a simulation, it would be the closes thing to the real deal.

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1: the 071s full displacement is more around 28k tons
2: they had AORs to call upon and had no need to use the 071 to "simulate"

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

chuck731 said:

QE would be the best indicator for the likely rate of progress for building Liaoning successor. Both are being built by ship builders without prior (comparable) experiences in building very large modern combat vessels.

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The QE is a poor indicator for rate of progress, the vessel went through 3 major revisions before settling on the "final" design, then after that the incoming government flip flopped over whether it should be catobar or stobar, finally it's been further delayed by politics as the government tries to constrain spending by the MOD by slowing down the builds.

With regards to building 2 carriers unless the Chinese plan to re-use the existing Liaoning hull form they'll be taking a risk putting a 2nd vessel in the water without working out the kinks in the first. So if they are going to make radical changes to the basic Liaoning design (like a much bigger vessel) expect a gap between the 1st and 2nd vessels.

With modern modular ship building they can shrink the gap but unless they are really confident they won't be completing a 2nd vessel until they well after the builder trials of the first. Anyway don't think they are in a rush

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Bltizo said:

2: I do not think the PLAN will like to send in a major power projection force like a carrier and an LPD to the SCS for the near to mid future for any kind of extended "stationing" or deployment inside the SCS itself. There is no doubting they will be invaluable in scenarios involving actual conflict against any nations in the area, but china has been relatively low key in its SCS deployment of naval vessels there and have thus far mostly sent maritime law enforcements vessels there and a few older frigates. Deploying a task force like what we saw to the SCS during peacetime would be massively inflammatory. And that leads me to my belief that the PLAN's "deployments" of the liaoning and other future aircraft carriers may be more further afield, say, the Indian Ocean. Places where they can test their mettle an have interests I'm but not invoke unnecessary regional chafing of close neighbours. Of course, they will still train in SCS and other closer to home areas, but not maintain a very permanent presence at all.

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PLAN probably doesn't want to deploy carrier permanently or semi-permanently to SCS , but that doesn't mean they are not preparing for quick deployment in case of rapid escalation . Current ship (Liaoning) and its crew are still green and untested , but they could give invaluable service against "lighter" opponents like Philippines and Vietnam .

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Bltizo said:

1: while the liaoning was indeed sent to the SCS, I do not think she was sent there specifically to do exercises with the LPD. It might have been one of the secondary reasons, but I think the primary reason was because the SCS is the only one of two "near sea" deep water zones that the PLAN could exercise in, the other being ECS, and considering how turbulent the ECS situation was around December, exercises there was actually the less provocative choice.

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The PLAN announced that she would be down there in the SCS conducting testing and maneuvering exercises. The fact that she conducted those exercises with the LPD while she was there tells us that that was one of the reasons she went there. Perhaps not the only reason for sure, but absolutely no doubt one of them. My point was simply that the exercise was certainly not meant to have the Type 071 LPD simply fill in for an AOR. The LPD exercised with the carrier becasue they planned it well before she ever went down there.

Bltizo said:

2: I do not think the PLAN will like to send in a major power projection force like a carrier and an LPD to the SCS for the near to mid future for any kind of extended "stationing" or deployment inside the SCS itself. Of course, they will still train in SCS and other closer to home areas, but not maintain a very permanent presence at all.

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My point was not that the Liaoning would be stationed in the SCS. I never meant to even imply that. My point was that in learning to maneuver with an LPD the Liaoning is developing the ability to perform joint exercises with an LPD. The most likely place that such a mission (not just an exercise, but an actual operation) would be necessary in the short to mid term is in the SCS where the PLAN has announced its interests and where there are numerous disputed areas that are less likely to pit the PLAN and the Liaoning directly against the JMSDF or US Navy in so doing.