PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card
1. China military expansion - I agree with you somewhat. China seems to be actually contracting while modernizing some of their military. PLAAF is a good example. Thousands of less capable J-7's and such are being taken out while PLAAF will field a smaller number of more capable SU-30 MKK's and J-10's. But in fairness, I would say China is expanding their missiles opposite Taiwan. So your conclusion is not totally a fair assessment.
2. China unbalancing the region - I would have to say adding Kilos, Sukhoi jets, and hundreds of SRBM and IRBM's every year unbalances the region completely. But to be fair to China, modernizing does not in and of itself do this alone. That's just the trade-off. Not necessarily a negative thing though.
3. China blocking shipping lanes - I've never heard this charge leveled....anywhere. Could you provide links?
4. China and Russia as axis power - Again, I've never seen and OFFICIAL charge leveled here. Just because the U.S. highlighted these exercises with "interest", does not mean they charge them with anything.
5. Human rights - At least in the USA I can choose any religion I see fit. If Catholic, I can acknowledge the teachings from the Vatican. I can stand out in front of the White House cursing G.W. Bush, calling for his downfall. I'd love to see anybody in China stand out in Beijing calling Hu Jintao a criminal that should be deposed. The USA smells like roses compared to China in this area. Nuff' said!
@TJJH - I agree there will be no war. But China does not hold the entire economic ace alone. Both China and the USA share this trump card. You see, China needs American markets to keep her economy growing. The U.S. needs China economically for the same reason. They provide us with cost-effective durable goods. China is an economic partner and we need eachother. The USA could hurt China's economy also.
You talk about the MTV generation not standing for the end of cheap goods. Have you heard of CAFTA? Alot of those Chinese manufacturing jobs will be going to Latin America.....not all of them though. Cheap goods will continue to flow here. But more and more will flow from Latin America. And I believe China would lose the political ace with an out-and-out invasion of Taiwan. THAT would be an illegal invasion. Before you give me the "Iraq was illegal" nonsense, go read U.N. Resolution 1441.
H5N1 said:
1. China military expansion - I agree with you somewhat. China seems to be actually contracting while modernizing some of their military. PLAAF is a good example. Thousands of less capable J-7's and such are being taken out while PLAAF will field a smaller number of more capable SU-30 MKK's and J-10's. But in fairness, I would say China is expanding their missiles opposite Taiwan. So your conclusion is not totally a fair assessment.
2. China unbalancing the region - I would have to say adding Kilos, Sukhoi jets, and hundreds of SRBM and IRBM's every year unbalances the region completely. But to be fair to China, modernizing does not in and of itself do this alone. That's just the trade-off. Not necessarily a negative thing though.
3. China blocking shipping lanes - I've never heard this charge leveled....anywhere. Could you provide links?
4. China and Russia as axis power - Again, I've never seen and OFFICIAL charge leveled here. Just because the U.S. highlighted these exercises with "interest", does not mean they charge them with anything.
5. Human rights - At least in the USA I can choose any religion I see fit. If Catholic, I can acknowledge the teachings from the Vatican. I can stand out in front of the White House cursing G.W. Bush, calling for his downfall. I'd love to see anybody in China stand out in Beijing calling Hu Jintao a criminal that should be deposed. The USA smells like roses compared to China in this area. Nuff' said!
@TJJH - I agree there will be no war. But China does not hold the entire economic ace alone. Both China and the USA share this trump card. You see, China needs American markets to keep her economy growing. The U.S. needs China economically for the same reason. They provide us with cost-effective durable goods. China is an economic partner and we need eachother. The USA could hurt China's economy also.
You talk about the MTV generation not standing for the end of cheap goods. Have you heard of CAFTA? Alot of those Chinese manufacturing jobs will be going to Latin America.....not all of them though. Cheap goods will continue to flow here. But more and more will flow from Latin America. And I believe China would lose the political ace with an out-and-out invasion of Taiwan. THAT would be an illegal invasion. Before you give me the "Iraq was illegal" nonsense, go read U.N. Resolution 1441.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
I believe that certainly auxillary power, either from temporary generators on or off the ship have been providing much of the power. It is also possible that the PLAN has installed auxillary generators that they would ultimatley use when the Varyag is complete.
There is also an outside possibility, that the PLAN has also either already begin or even completed the assembly of engines inside the ship. The technology is available to do so, without the fanfare of huge crans at pierside.
We shall see one day how the Varyag will be powered, on the day it either leaves those docks under its own power, or it towed and pushed away.
MIGleader said:
I believe that certainly auxillary power, either from temporary generators on or off the ship have been providing much of the power. It is also possible that the PLAN has installed auxillary generators that they would ultimatley use when the Varyag is complete.
There is also an outside possibility, that the PLAN has also either already begin or even completed the assembly of engines inside the ship. The technology is available to do so, without the fanfare of huge crans at pierside.
We shall see one day how the Varyag will be powered, on the day it either leaves those docks under its own power, or it towed and pushed away.
Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card
I mentioned on another thread the following about the PLAN and its overall reduction in numbers meaning that there is no "buildup" going on.
While this is true pure numbers, in terms of ongoing shipbuilding it is most certainly not true. The PLAN is embarked on a phenominal shipbuilding program of new, modern combatants. Certainly adding new hulls at a faster rate than any other nation on earth at the present time, and perhaps at a faster rate than any time since World War II.
So, while they are retiring older ships at a fast pace, they are adding very capable, new, modern combatants at a pace more rapid than anyone else right now.
I haven't checked, but the same type of scenario may also hold in other areas (ie. Mechanized forces, air forces, ballistic missiles, etc.)
Sea Dog said:
I mentioned on another thread the following about the PLAN and its overall reduction in numbers meaning that there is no "buildup" going on.
While this is true pure numbers, in terms of ongoing shipbuilding it is most certainly not true. The PLAN is embarked on a phenominal shipbuilding program of new, modern combatants. Certainly adding new hulls at a faster rate than any other nation on earth at the present time, and perhaps at a faster rate than any time since World War II.
So, while they are retiring older ships at a fast pace, they are adding very capable, new, modern combatants at a pace more rapid than anyone else right now.
I haven't checked, but the same type of scenario may also hold in other areas (ie. Mechanized forces, air forces, ballistic missiles, etc.)
Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card
Most of the investment going into PRC is infact from ROC businessmen. Also, do not forget that the world buys from PRC, not just America. There are too many what ifs and not enough real possibilities. China will not retake Taiwan unless ROC declares itself as ROT.
Most of the investment going into PRC is infact from ROC businessmen. Also, do not forget that the world buys from PRC, not just America. There are too many what ifs and not enough real possibilities. China will not retake Taiwan unless ROC declares itself as ROT.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
Well I see there is some interesting thoughts here in this thread about the Varyag.
Detroyer captians would need a lot of training to handle a ship the size of the Varyag. The USN call these ships this size "deep draft" it takes speical skills to operate them. Many, many years of traing and watch standing to be profiecent in handling a ship this size. It's not just the CO that will handle the ship. The helmsmen need training etc... The list and type of tarining is very long.
You can't just be somewhat proficent in operating a CV. You have to be proficent. Otherwise accidents will occur. Presently it takes the USN about12-20 months to re-train and certify a CV crew for deployment. Remember the USN has been operating CV's since 1922.
Jeff is correct. When a USN ship is in the shipyard or in it's homeport power is supplied by sources on shore in most cases. All large ships have auxilary engines and generators.
As for the aircraft
Who really knows? I think it will be Mig-29's because that's what the IN has purchased.
Well I see there is some interesting thoughts here in this thread about the Varyag.
Detroyer captians would need a lot of training to handle a ship the size of the Varyag. The USN call these ships this size "deep draft" it takes speical skills to operate them. Many, many years of traing and watch standing to be profiecent in handling a ship this size. It's not just the CO that will handle the ship. The helmsmen need training etc... The list and type of tarining is very long.
You can't just be somewhat proficent in operating a CV. You have to be proficent. Otherwise accidents will occur. Presently it takes the USN about12-20 months to re-train and certify a CV crew for deployment. Remember the USN has been operating CV's since 1922.
Jeff is correct. When a USN ship is in the shipyard or in it's homeport power is supplied by sources on shore in most cases. All large ships have auxilary engines and generators.
As for the aircraft
Who really knows? I think it will be Mig-29's because that's what the IN has purchased.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
It is an interesting thread and a good discussion. Thanks for your vary valuable, insightful, and experienced comments popeye.
I believe the PLAN will probably find experienced commanders of larger, auxillary ships. I believe most Captains of US carriers spend at least one stint commanding a large AOR vessel to gain the deep draft experience.
The PLAN has captains now who have experience in larger ships like those Type 072 amphibs (10,000 tons?), their Duyan class cargo ships (11,000 tons), their Fuqing (11,000 tons) or Nancang AORs (37,000 tons), and other large auxilliary vessels that they could draw upon.
That would be my bet anyway.
I still believe a variant of the SU-27 will fly off the Varyag. That is what they were made for, how the Russians operate them, and the type of aircraft the PRC has been buying and license building. But that's just my own opinion.
bd popeye said:
It is an interesting thread and a good discussion. Thanks for your vary valuable, insightful, and experienced comments popeye.
I believe the PLAN will probably find experienced commanders of larger, auxillary ships. I believe most Captains of US carriers spend at least one stint commanding a large AOR vessel to gain the deep draft experience.
The PLAN has captains now who have experience in larger ships like those Type 072 amphibs (10,000 tons?), their Duyan class cargo ships (11,000 tons), their Fuqing (11,000 tons) or Nancang AORs (37,000 tons), and other large auxilliary vessels that they could draw upon.
That would be my bet anyway.
I still believe a variant of the SU-27 will fly off the Varyag. That is what they were made for, how the Russians operate them, and the type of aircraft the PRC has been buying and license building. But that's just my own opinion.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
Look at pic 1 and 4 of page 1, these thread:
that blue building have no big dor in front to the water and no contact to the waterline, so it can_t be a dock. It could be a hall, where modules are built. As I know, ShangHai's JN shipyard has such in-house module factory as well.
I guess that blue building is not a dock. The dry dock is where the huge red crane is. If my info is correctly, that dry dock in Dalian is the largest in china, either 100KT or 300KT.PLABUDDY said:
Look at pic 1 and 4 of page 1, these thread:
that blue building have no big dor in front to the water and no contact to the waterline, so it can_t be a dock. It could be a hall, where modules are built. As I know, ShangHai's JN shipyard has such in-house module factory as well.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
Jeff that use to be true. But now the USN operates zero AOR's & AOE's . They still have the US Military Sealift Command(MSC) operating the 4 remaining AOE's which are usally commanded by a USN Captian. But nowadays some must go to the larger ships such as a LPD, LHA etc. The best way to check that would be look up the Bio's of CVN skippers on CVN websites.
The MSC does operate a total of 110 ships. Most are deep draft ships. They are all commaned by USN officers and a mix of civillian and USN personell.
Well all this is just conjecture on our parts since no one I know has relible information on when,if ever, the PLAN will operate the Varyag. Personally I think the Varyag will be an operational ship for the PLAN.
Jeff that use to be true. But now the USN operates zero AOR's & AOE's . They still have the US Military Sealift Command(MSC) operating the 4 remaining AOE's which are usally commanded by a USN Captian. But nowadays some must go to the larger ships such as a LPD, LHA etc. The best way to check that would be look up the Bio's of CVN skippers on CVN websites.
The MSC does operate a total of 110 ships. Most are deep draft ships. They are all commaned by USN officers and a mix of civillian and USN personell.
Well all this is just conjecture on our parts since no one I know has relible information on when,if ever, the PLAN will operate the Varyag. Personally I think the Varyag will be an operational ship for the PLAN.
Re: Latest Varyag Pics
I went and checked the bio of the USS Ronald Reagan skipper, Captain James A. Symonds, and you are spot on popeye. He was an aviator (no surprise there) who went on to be XO on the USS EISENHOWER (CVN 69) and then CO on the NASHVILLE (LPD 13), a large (17,000 ton) amphib, before taking over on the Reagan.
I agree with that assessment. Too much work, too much effort, too much security IMHO. I believe we shall soon see.
bd popeye said:
I went and checked the bio of the USS Ronald Reagan skipper, Captain James A. Symonds, and you are spot on popeye. He was an aviator (no surprise there) who went on to be XO on the USS EISENHOWER (CVN 69) and then CO on the NASHVILLE (LPD 13), a large (17,000 ton) amphib, before taking over on the Reagan.
bd popeye said:
I agree with that assessment. Too much work, too much effort, too much security IMHO. I believe we shall soon see.