PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

rhino123 said:

Hi, to all the experts out there, as we know we have not seen a Su-33 launched in full load out of a ski jump carrier, however, if the... say, the J-15 but armed with more powerful engines (like the WS-15 when that engines are available). Could the aircraft then be launched from the Ski Jump carrier with full load?

I know it was not done now, but how about theoretically?

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If the "more powerful" engine means a heavier engine, then it's still to be seen how much a performance boost it'd bring. Also, it has to take account to fuel efficiency, as well as real thrust output at high humidity high saline environment.

Also, as long as it still using ski jump, aircraft's effective operational range (or flight time, to put it the other way) will suffer, for J-15 to have effective payload with usable operational range, mid-air refueling will be a must.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

kwaigonegin said:

I think under very ideal control conditions it is possible to launch an aircraft fully loaded with a ski ramp HOWEVER for all intent and purposes you can't ( I think that's what popeye was refering to).

With a catapult you can launch anytime anywhere w/o so many restrictions.. with ski ramp you can't unless you have that perfect weather, wind speed etc but even then you SHOULDN'T.

You are risking unecessary safety as well. Besides the last thing you want going through a naval aviator's head is him sweatin bullets as he's about to launch because he knows his bird is carrying tons more ordnance than recommended for launch. He may overcorrect, make mistakes or just poop in his pants

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The worst aspect of trying to assume ideal conditions is that you can't plan around them. Nevermind all the other risks. What good is depending on capabilities that only exist in a fraction of a percent of the situation?

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

One more reason why we haven't seen any photos of heavy loaded Su-33 on Kuznetsov could be the fact that the soviets/russians have a different doctrine in carrier ops.
They did not intend to launch heavy strike fighters for long range missions - the mission of the kuznetsov was to defend the fleet against airstrikes.
Attacks against the enemy fleet are the mission of the cruisers, destroyers and submarines armed with long range supersonic anti-ship missiles.

So, the reason why the russians never tried to launch Su-33 with heavy air to ground ordonance may be that they never wanted to launch a fighter in such a configuration!?

Is it possible to refuel the J-15 by buddy-to-buddy refuiling?
So may be that it is possible to launch a fully loaded J-15 from the back position with low fuel und refuil it after take-off?

Sure, it is impossible to launch a AEW aircraft like E-2 - you have to use Helos instead with all there limitations!
And even it is possible to launch a fully loaded J-15 strike fighter, it is only possible under some circumstances:
Only from the back position - so you have only one take-off-track that you can use!
May be the carrier has to turn into the wind and speed up to launch the strike fighters?

Limitations which you don't have with cats!
So again, i think PLAN should move to real CATOBAR as soon as possible, as soon there cats are available.
If there are available in a time frame right for the second carrier, they should build this one as CATOBAR!
If the cats are not available within next 5 years, it makes sense to build a second STOBAR before switching to CATOBAR.
But a mixture like the Ulyanovsk still doesn't make sense to me!

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Most people think that the PLAN will follow USN in the size and configuration of their carriers. However USN developed its 100k carriers when it was the only navy with offensive capabilities and with one large defensive navy on the other side. This has not yet changed and even now the ability of the US to interfere in other countries is decreasing, see Syria. PLAN will not live in the permissive environment USN experienced and its carriers will have to be developed with that very different environment in mind. It might mean that two smaller carriers might be worth more than a single 100k carrier while costing little more especially for a navy with only a small number of carriers. Those smaller carriers must use all techniques available, still to be developed perhaps, to make optimal use of their flight deck and personnel. The number of possible configurations is large and PLAN will certainly look at ways to reduce the cost of providing the air power its needs. Think also of the cost of infrastructure necessary for building the carriers.

Btw theoretically Kuznetsov is able to launch Su-33's at MTOW.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

PLAN definitely have different requirements than USN. Really don't see the need for PLAN to have a carrier anywhere to the size that the USN has. Liaoning's size is basically adequate for what the PLAN needs, and maximum tonnage until it becomes a waste of money and resources shouldn't be more than 75,000t. 3-5 60-65,000t for PLAN is more than adequate for protection China's interest and defending the country. And if ever required offensive power is more then sufficient.

Not saying build Liaoning's perfect but more less is sufficient after slight redesign. Elevator resizing & reduce island size.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

The discussion is not about the tonnage - its about the configuration of the carrier...
You don't need a 100.000t ship for CATOBAR.
You can also have a CATOBAR carrier with 60.000 to 70.000 tons....
The french CdG is about 45.000 tons and is still a CATOBAR!

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

it wasnt related to that chain of discussion. that's why i didnt quote anyone

Xian said:

The discussion is not about the tonnage - its about the configuration of the carrier...
You don't need a 100.000t ship for CATOBAR.
You can also have a CATOBAR carrier with 60.000 to 70.000 tons....
The french CdG is about 45.000 tons and is still a CATOBAR!

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i know.... i ain't new to military hardware. have been following for awhile

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

Another point we are forgetting: CSIC stopped trading in its shares at the Shanghai stock exchange about three months ago until about now to prevent people using fore-knowledge about contracts being negotiated between itself and the government regarding investment relevant to the building of large naval ships. If that period has passed CSIC should have published a document to inform its shareholders: what did it say?
It still seems reasonable to suppose that it concerns investment in the shipyard in Dalian that is to build the next flattop and that it will include provisions to install an integrated power system, so necessary to reduce fuel consumption by the gas turbine prime movers and to provide power to the cats if and when these are installed. That would also mean that the construction of that flattop can now begin except perhaps when at some stage the construction of the ship would have to wait on that new investment.
It also seems reasonable that a similar contract with CSSC will have been signed, less complex and expensive, to provide for type 055 ( or whatever its designation will be ) that also will be fitted with three or four gas turbines and an integrated power system and that at least one building hall is now being modernized accordingly.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

I certainly did not mean to offend Popeye, and I hold both your opinion and his in high regard.

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thank you ..however you did not offend me.

Lion said:

Blitzio posted an article from Russia kuznetsov CV claim Su-33 full loaded launch from back angle deck position with ship charging at 25 knots is able to launch from ramp.

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I'd like to see that. If they do that how often can they do that? How many aircraft can the spot on that flight deck for those loads? they would need lots of space for those long runs to the ramp.

Yep.. you need catapults for full fledged strike ops. And I know the Russians intended their CVs for CAP missions.

Re: PLAN Carrier Construction

something I think we should point out about the Ulyanovsk was that her CAT's were meant for AEW craft.I don't think the Russians ever meant for SU33's or any other fighters to ride them. with the Termination of the Ulyanovsk the YAK 44 AEW was scrapped too.