PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

When using a ski ramp the range of those aircraft is limited because they cannot launch with a full fuel tank. So while the CV and it's escort are fighting and those aircraft start running out of fuel what shall they do? Will China have a tanker standing by? Tankers are not practical with a ski ramp because they just can't launch. Too heavy. So what shall the PLAN do? I think that eventually they shall have more escorts.

Click to expand...

thats one of the reasons to prefer carriers with cats, the so called "ski jump" could be enough for trainee-carriers, but these kind of carriers ar not really usefull in a real conflict.
Better two small carriers with catapult (to change in patroll and in a real conflict, if one of them is sinking, the other one could be used) as one "ski jump" carrier with limited hangar space ....

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

When using a ski ramp the range of those aircraft is limited because they cannot launch with a full fuel tank. So while the CV and it's escort are fighting and those aircraft start running out of fuel what shall they do? Will China have a tanker standing by? Tankers are not practical with a ski ramp because they just can't launch. Too heavy. So what shall the PLAN do? I think that eventually they shall have more escorts.

Click to expand...

thats one of the reasons to prefer carriers with cats, the so called "ski jump" could be enough for trainee-carriers, but these kind of carriers ar not really usefull in a real conflict.
Better two small carriers with catapult (to change in patroll and in a real conflict, if one of them is sinking, the other one could be used) as one "ski jump" carrier with limited hangar space ....

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

When using a ski ramp the range of those aircraft is limited because they cannot launch with a full fuel tank. So while the CV and it's escort are fighting and those aircraft start running out of fuel what shall they do? Will China have a tanker standing by? Tankers are not practical with a ski ramp because they just can't launch. Too heavy. So what shall the PLAN do? I think that eventually they shall have more escorts.

Click to expand...

India wanted the E-2 to operate off INS Vikramaditya. After the necessary calculations, it was determined an E-2 could launch, but the fuel load would have to be reduced to the point where the Hummer would only have one hour on station, and it would have no margin for an engine failure on take off. That idea was shelved.
The Russians have a buddy store for the Flanker that could conceivably be used for a dedicated tanker, but the plane would need to use 2/3 of the flight deck and the ski jump for such a take off. If you look at their flight deck markings you see there is such a take off run marked on the deck, starting on the angle deck where a USN carrier would have a waist catapult and continuing all the way to the bow.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

When using a ski ramp the range of those aircraft is limited because they cannot launch with a full fuel tank. So while the CV and it's escort are fighting and those aircraft start running out of fuel what shall they do? Will China have a tanker standing by? Tankers are not practical with a ski ramp because they just can't launch. Too heavy. So what shall the PLAN do? I think that eventually they shall have more escorts.

Click to expand...

India wanted the E-2 to operate off INS Vikramaditya. After the necessary calculations, it was determined an E-2 could launch, but the fuel load would have to be reduced to the point where the Hummer would only have one hour on station, and it would have no margin for an engine failure on take off. That idea was shelved.
The Russians have a buddy store for the Flanker that could conceivably be used for a dedicated tanker, but the plane would need to use 2/3 of the flight deck and the ski jump for such a take off. If you look at their flight deck markings you see there is such a take off run marked on the deck, starting on the angle deck where a USN carrier would have a waist catapult and continuing all the way to the bow.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

bd popeye said:

When using a ski ramp the range of those aircraft is limited because they cannot launch with a full fuel tank. So while the CV and it's escort are fighting and those aircraft start running out of fuel what shall they do? Will China have a tanker standing by? Tankers are not practical with a ski ramp because they just can't launch. Too heavy. So what shall the PLAN do? I think that eventually they shall have more escorts.

Click to expand...

India wanted the E-2 to operate off INS Vikramaditya. After the necessary calculations, it was determined an E-2 could launch, but the fuel load would have to be reduced to the point where the Hummer would only have one hour on station, and it would have no margin for an engine failure on take off. That idea was shelved.
The Russians have a buddy store for the Flanker that could conceivably be used for a dedicated tanker, but the plane would need to use 2/3 of the flight deck and the ski jump for such a take off. If you look at their flight deck markings you see there is such a take off run marked on the deck, starting on the angle deck where a USN carrier would have a waist catapult and continuing all the way to the bow.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

rhino123 said:

Although, many has pointed out (in this thread and others) the disadvantage of heavily armed carriers and the reason why US navy didn't adopt such an approach.

But if we look at the US navy again, the US carriers are escorted and protected by large number of destroyers and other type of ships. Of course this is a good tactic, but it is extremely expensive and to maintain that vast amount of ships and a carrier is very difficult unless you are a nation that is very rich and had huge number of warships at your disposal.

Click to expand...

bd popeye said:

The reason a USN CV is lightly armed is that her aircraft are her main armament. You can't be firing off missile etc and conducting flight operation. It just does not work well. That's why the USN has escorts with it's CVNs. They form the Carrier Strike Group

Click to expand...

Actually, the US carriers carry a fairly heavy self-defense armament. They are not armed for offensive fighting themselves, because as popeye indicates, their aircraft are more than adequate for that, carrying much more firepower, longer distances, and more accurately.

But for self defense against air threat (aircraft or missiles), the armament has developed into

2 X Medium range Sea Sparrow Launchers with 16 missiles ready
2 X Short (but very effective) range RAM launchers w/42 missiles ready.
2 X 20mm CIWS Phalanx systems

Those are pretty strong armaments and allow for a lot of self-defense for any missiles or aircraft that get through :

1) The aircraft defensive ring of carrier aircraft far out from the carrier on barrier CAP.
2) The AEGIS escorts on picket and outer ring air defense duty.
3) The AEGIS escort(s) on innner ring air defense.

The aircraft carrier and its airwing are far too expensive a commodity to risk needlessly, meaning, to risk without having the absolute best defenses available as they accomplish their mission to project power and defend the interests of their nation...which itself is a risk, which is why their escorts and their own onboard self defenses have to be very strong. Having most of the defenses centered on the carrier itself would not allow for the defense in depth her escorts help to provide. For this reason, I expect the PLAN carrier to constitute the centerpiece of a CSG that is just as large, if not larger that the carrier escort group.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

rhino123 said:

Although, many has pointed out (in this thread and others) the disadvantage of heavily armed carriers and the reason why US navy didn't adopt such an approach.

But if we look at the US navy again, the US carriers are escorted and protected by large number of destroyers and other type of ships. Of course this is a good tactic, but it is extremely expensive and to maintain that vast amount of ships and a carrier is very difficult unless you are a nation that is very rich and had huge number of warships at your disposal.

Click to expand...

bd popeye said:

The reason a USN CV is lightly armed is that her aircraft are her main armament. You can't be firing off missile etc and conducting flight operation. It just does not work well. That's why the USN has escorts with it's CVNs. They form the Carrier Strike Group

Click to expand...

Actually, the US carriers carry a fairly heavy self-defense armament. They are not armed for offensive fighting themselves, because as popeye indicates, their aircraft are more than adequate for that, carrying much more firepower, longer distances, and more accurately.

But for self defense against air threat (aircraft or missiles), the armament has developed into

2 X Medium range Sea Sparrow Launchers with 16 missiles ready
2 X Short (but very effective) range RAM launchers w/42 missiles ready.
2 X 20mm CIWS Phalanx systems

Those are pretty strong armaments and allow for a lot of self-defense for any missiles or aircraft that get through :

1) The aircraft defensive ring of carrier aircraft far out from the carrier on barrier CAP.
2) The AEGIS escorts on picket and outer ring air defense duty.
3) The AEGIS escort(s) on innner ring air defense.

The aircraft carrier and its airwing are far too expensive a commodity to risk needlessly, meaning, to risk without having the absolute best defenses available as they accomplish their mission to project power and defend the interests of their nation...which itself is a risk, which is why their escorts and their own onboard self defenses have to be very strong. Having most of the defenses centered on the carrier itself would not allow for the defense in depth her escorts help to provide. For this reason, I expect the PLAN carrier to constitute the centerpiece of a CSG that is just as large, if not larger that the carrier escort group.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

rhino123 said:

Although, many has pointed out (in this thread and others) the disadvantage of heavily armed carriers and the reason why US navy didn't adopt such an approach.

But if we look at the US navy again, the US carriers are escorted and protected by large number of destroyers and other type of ships. Of course this is a good tactic, but it is extremely expensive and to maintain that vast amount of ships and a carrier is very difficult unless you are a nation that is very rich and had huge number of warships at your disposal.

Click to expand...

bd popeye said:

The reason a USN CV is lightly armed is that her aircraft are her main armament. You can't be firing off missile etc and conducting flight operation. It just does not work well. That's why the USN has escorts with it's CVNs. They form the Carrier Strike Group

Click to expand...

Actually, the US carriers carry a fairly heavy self-defense armament. They are not armed for offensive fighting themselves, because as popeye indicates, their aircraft are more than adequate for that, carrying much more firepower, longer distances, and more accurately.

But for self defense against air threat (aircraft or missiles), the armament has developed into

2 X Medium range Sea Sparrow Launchers with 16 missiles ready
2 X Short (but very effective) range RAM launchers w/42 missiles ready.
2 X 20mm CIWS Phalanx systems

Those are pretty strong armaments and allow for a lot of self-defense for any missiles or aircraft that get through :

1) The aircraft defensive ring of carrier aircraft far out from the carrier on barrier CAP.
2) The AEGIS escorts on picket and outer ring air defense duty.
3) The AEGIS escort(s) on innner ring air defense.

The aircraft carrier and its airwing are far too expensive a commodity to risk needlessly, meaning, to risk without having the absolute best defenses available as they accomplish their mission to project power and defend the interests of their nation...which itself is a risk, which is why their escorts and their own onboard self defenses have to be very strong. Having most of the defenses centered on the carrier itself would not allow for the defense in depth her escorts help to provide. For this reason, I expect the PLAN carrier to constitute the centerpiece of a CSG that is just as large, if not larger that the carrier escort group.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Actually, the US carriers carry a fairly heavy self-defense armament. They are not armed for offensive fighting themselves, because as popeye indicates, their aircraft are more than adequate for that, carrying much more firepower, longer distances, and more accurately.

But for self defense against air threat (aircraft or missiles), the armament has developed into

2 X Medium range Sea Sparrow Launchers with 16 missiles ready
2 X Short (but very effective) range RAM launchers w/42 missiles ready.
2 X 20mm CIWS Phalanx systems

Those are pretty strong armaments and allow for a lot of self-defense for any missiles or aircraft that get through :

1) The aircraft defensive ring of carrier aircraft far out from the carrier on barrier CAP.
2) The AEGIS escorts on picket and outer ring air defense duty.
3) The AEGIS escort(s) on innner ring air defense.

The aircraft carrier and its airwing are far too expensive a commodity to risk in any way. Having most of the defenses centered on the carrier itself would not allow for the defense in depth her escorts help to provide. For this reason, I expect the PLAN carrier to constitute the centerpiece of a CSG that is just as large, if not larger that the carrier escort group.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your last paragraph Jeff. The carrier and her airwing will most definitely be put at risk in a major war. They are not there for show, they are combat systems and will be risked in combat if there is a need. Those ships are designed to absorb damage, and though the actual specs are highly classified, there are specific numbers of torpedo, bomb and missile hits a carrier is designed to withstand and still fight, if that becomes necessary. It is assumed that in a naval war carriers will take hits and that escorts will be expended defending the carrier.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Actually, the US carriers carry a fairly heavy self-defense armament. They are not armed for offensive fighting themselves, because as popeye indicates, their aircraft are more than adequate for that, carrying much more firepower, longer distances, and more accurately.

But for self defense against air threat (aircraft or missiles), the armament has developed into

2 X Medium range Sea Sparrow Launchers with 16 missiles ready
2 X Short (but very effective) range RAM launchers w/42 missiles ready.
2 X 20mm CIWS Phalanx systems

Those are pretty strong armaments and allow for a lot of self-defense for any missiles or aircraft that get through :

1) The aircraft defensive ring of carrier aircraft far out from the carrier on barrier CAP.
2) The AEGIS escorts on picket and outer ring air defense duty.
3) The AEGIS escort(s) on innner ring air defense.

The aircraft carrier and its airwing are far too expensive a commodity to risk in any way. Having most of the defenses centered on the carrier itself would not allow for the defense in depth her escorts help to provide. For this reason, I expect the PLAN carrier to constitute the centerpiece of a CSG that is just as large, if not larger that the carrier escort group.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your last paragraph Jeff. The carrier and her airwing will most definitely be put at risk in a major war. They are not there for show, they are combat systems and will be risked in combat if there is a need. Those ships are designed to absorb damage, and though the actual specs are highly classified, there are specific numbers of torpedo, bomb and missile hits a carrier is designed to withstand and still fight, if that becomes necessary. It is assumed that in a naval war carriers will take hits and that escorts will be expended defending the carrier.