PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Agree with all you said. But Japan is capable of producing aircraft if they want, and they certainly could change...or, more likely...stretch their constitution for a time if they feel the need.

Either way, after looking hard at the two platforms (Dokdo and Hyuga) I do not believe either one, even if outfitted with F-35s, would be as capable as the Varyag or what the Chinese will probably produce with their indigenous designs.

Capable vessels, no doubt, but really not in the same class as a Varyag or larger sized carrier.

They would either compliment US forces, or have to build something bigger themselves. Not likely IMHO for S. Korea...but a possibility for Japan in a few years.

All of that is, of course, simply my own opinion.

Click to expand...

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

As for the South Koreans, they probably don't have as many political obstacles, but nonetheless, they have their own economic problems to deal with. I don't know what's holding them up even for participating in Somali anti pirate mission.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Agree with all you said. But Japan is capable of producing aircraft if they want, and they certainly could change...or, more likely...stretch their constitution for a time if they feel the need.

Either way, after looking hard at the two platforms (Dokdo and Hyuga) I do not believe either one, even if outfitted with F-35s, would be as capable as the Varyag or what the Chinese will probably produce with their indigenous designs.

Capable vessels, no doubt, but really not in the same class as a Varyag or larger sized carrier.

They would either compliment US forces, or have to build something bigger themselves. Not likely IMHO for S. Korea...but a possibility for Japan in a few years.

All of that is, of course, simply my own opinion.

Click to expand...

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

As for the South Koreans, they probably don't have as many political obstacles, but nonetheless, they have their own economic problems to deal with. I don't know what's holding them up even for participating in Somali anti pirate mission.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

Agree with all you said. But Japan is capable of producing aircraft if they want, and they certainly could change...or, more likely...stretch their constitution for a time if they feel the need.

Either way, after looking hard at the two platforms (Dokdo and Hyuga) I do not believe either one, even if outfitted with F-35s, would be as capable as the Varyag or what the Chinese will probably produce with their indigenous designs.

Capable vessels, no doubt, but really not in the same class as a Varyag or larger sized carrier.

They would either compliment US forces, or have to build something bigger themselves. Not likely IMHO for S. Korea...but a possibility for Japan in a few years.

All of that is, of course, simply my own opinion.

Click to expand...

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

As for the South Koreans, they probably don't have as many political obstacles, but nonetheless, they have their own economic problems to deal with. I don't know what's holding them up even for participating in Somali anti pirate mission.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Click to expand...

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

crobato said:

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

Click to expand...

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Click to expand...

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

crobato said:

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

Click to expand...

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

crobato said:

They don't actually have the capability to build the aircraft they want. The F-2 is not a carrier fighter by far and the carrier F-16 project have been tanked decades ago. Furthermore, the plane requires import of vital components from the US. For the cost of developing a new carrier fighter, they might as well buy JSF VTOLs.

Click to expand...

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

crobato said:

Changing the Constitution would be difficult because there is a lot of opposition to this, although the topic has been brought up. Before they can even begin the Constitutional changes that would allow them to build a full carrier, they have to make the Constitutional changes that would even allow the Navy to participate in long distance missions. So far they're already gritting their teeth by the fact they cannot even go to a Somali mission. Eventually you also have to make another change in the Constitution to allow for the use of nuclear power, because eventually that's what a carrier would lead to.

Click to expand...

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Click to expand...

But even so, developing a carrier fighter on their own on scratch is going to take a development cycle that dwarfs even developing a complex ship like a carrier. And the engine for that takes even longer.

Having the capability and manufacturing ability does not equate to a timely or cost effective delivery. In the end, unless you plan on building a large number of these fighters, you're better off getting the JSF or making the JSF in partnership. If Japan had made a serious effort on a fifth generation fighter and considered carrier use for it (navalization has to be considered right from the start), then they would have a head start. But it does not appear, aside from drawings and mockups, that there is a seriously funded effort on this, otherwise it would be quite public. Japan lacks many things like a large capacity indigenous turbofan, this is what allowed the US to dictate terms since the US can easily pull the plug on any fighter project that it deems a financial competitor to their own. Darn pretty sure the US wants to sell the JSF to Japan. The technological and manufacturing know how is there, just not the time, unless you're looking at dates like 2020 to 2030 for a prototype of the engine and plane. Nor the infrastructure, since you still need a dedicated military-industrial complex, something that really never took much root in Japan due to its dependencies to the US.

And if you don't decide now, then the date falls even further behind. The F-2 didn't do much to improve the Japanese aeronautical industry, rather, it may have stunted it since it didn't allow them to exercise their technological abilities and gain vital experience---and this in fact, ironically, may have been the US intention's all along to prevent the rise of a competitor to their Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

An indigenous fighter is simply out of it unless Japan turns around politically and say I will do it now. You cannot divorce the political and economic from the technological. The best Japan can do is a co production agreement on a carrier JSF for the JSMDF and use a VTOL style small to medium carrier.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Click to expand...

But even so, developing a carrier fighter on their own on scratch is going to take a development cycle that dwarfs even developing a complex ship like a carrier. And the engine for that takes even longer.

Having the capability and manufacturing ability does not equate to a timely or cost effective delivery. In the end, unless you plan on building a large number of these fighters, you're better off getting the JSF or making the JSF in partnership. If Japan had made a serious effort on a fifth generation fighter and considered carrier use for it (navalization has to be considered right from the start), then they would have a head start. But it does not appear, aside from drawings and mockups, that there is a seriously funded effort on this, otherwise it would be quite public. Japan lacks many things like a large capacity indigenous turbofan, this is what allowed the US to dictate terms since the US can easily pull the plug on any fighter project that it deems a financial competitor to their own. Darn pretty sure the US wants to sell the JSF to Japan. The technological and manufacturing know how is there, just not the time, unless you're looking at dates like 2020 to 2030 for a prototype of the engine and plane. Nor the infrastructure, since you still need a dedicated military-industrial complex, something that really never took much root in Japan due to its dependencies to the US.

And if you don't decide now, then the date falls even further behind. The F-2 didn't do much to improve the Japanese aeronautical industry, rather, it may have stunted it since it didn't allow them to exercise their technological abilities and gain vital experience---and this in fact, ironically, may have been the US intention's all along to prevent the rise of a competitor to their Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

An indigenous fighter is simply out of it unless Japan turns around politically and say I will do it now. You cannot divorce the political and economic from the technological. The best Japan can do is a co production agreement on a carrier JSF for the JSMDF and use a VTOL style small to medium carrier.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

See above. They simply have not been put into a position where they have the will to do it...but they certainly have the capability, and have been known to bend the rules a boit when necessary. I believe the 16DDH or Hyuga is one such example. That vessel, could easily carry the JSF if necessary on it's flight deck with refitting for VTOL blast, and I believe the lifts are large enough to take them below decks. If that is so, with some refitting they could service a small wing of them on the Hyuga.

Now, whether they have the motivation and the will to do such a thing economically and politically is another matter.

Click to expand...

But even so, developing a carrier fighter on their own on scratch is going to take a development cycle that dwarfs even developing a complex ship like a carrier. And the engine for that takes even longer.

Having the capability and manufacturing ability does not equate to a timely or cost effective delivery. In the end, unless you plan on building a large number of these fighters, you're better off getting the JSF or making the JSF in partnership. If Japan had made a serious effort on a fifth generation fighter and considered carrier use for it (navalization has to be considered right from the start), then they would have a head start. But it does not appear, aside from drawings and mockups, that there is a seriously funded effort on this, otherwise it would be quite public. Japan lacks many things like a large capacity indigenous turbofan, this is what allowed the US to dictate terms since the US can easily pull the plug on any fighter project that it deems a financial competitor to their own. Darn pretty sure the US wants to sell the JSF to Japan. The technological and manufacturing know how is there, just not the time, unless you're looking at dates like 2020 to 2030 for a prototype of the engine and plane. Nor the infrastructure, since you still need a dedicated military-industrial complex, something that really never took much root in Japan due to its dependencies to the US.

And if you don't decide now, then the date falls even further behind. The F-2 didn't do much to improve the Japanese aeronautical industry, rather, it may have stunted it since it didn't allow them to exercise their technological abilities and gain vital experience---and this in fact, ironically, may have been the US intention's all along to prevent the rise of a competitor to their Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

An indigenous fighter is simply out of it unless Japan turns around politically and say I will do it now. You cannot divorce the political and economic from the technological. The best Japan can do is a co production agreement on a carrier JSF for the JSMDF and use a VTOL style small to medium carrier.

Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Jeff Head said:

My point is simply that I believe that the Japanese have the capacity to build the aircraft...both technologically and manufacturing wise. They may not have the desire or will due to cost and political ramification, but I believe if they were sufficentlly motivated that they could do it.

Click to expand...

Actually, I agree with crobato in that Japan doesn't have the ability to build fighter aircraft. Otherwise, they would have stretched the constitution and built them already. As for needs, they don't need helicopter carriers either, but they built them nevertheless. As you can see, need is not such a big reason as you are making it out to be.