PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

tphuang

tphuang

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Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Hendrik_2000 said:
Size doesn't indicate that South Korea is more advance than China.It all depend on customer requirement Once you built a succesfull prototype it doesn't take long to scale up providing that you have big enough shipyard to built it

For your information the city class except it's weapon system and thales radar the majority are mostly domestic design

Doesn't mean that China cannot built 300,000 ton ships here is a news from China daily

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China to deliver 1st LNG ship
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2007-02-20 09:06

China has made substantial breakthroughs in shipbuilding as the first liquefied natural gas (LNG) ship made in China, one of the most advanced in the world, will be delivered in September.

Only the Republic of Korea, Japan and a few European countries have acquired the technologies to build such ocean liners.

Since natural gas can only be turned into the liquefied after the temperature dropped below minus 163 degrees Celsius, LNG ships are often dubbed as the "maritime super freezer".

The boat with a capacity of 47,200 cubic meters is under construction by the Hudong-Zhonghua Shipbuilding, a subsidiary of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC), China's top and the world's third largest shipping group.

Another four such LNG vessels also under construction would be delivered in the end of this year while the research and development for LNG ships with a capacity of 200,000 cubic meters is underway, sources with the CSSC said. The Shanghai Waigaoqiao Shipbuilding Company, one of its subsidiaries, is going to deliver a floating, production, storage and offloading vessel to the United States-headquartered oil giant ConocoPhilips in May.

The vessel with a designed capacity of 300,000 tons is the largest and most costly vessel of its kind in China.

CSSC will also deliver in September a 8,530 TEU container vessel and a dredger with a capacity of 13,500 cubic meters in May, both the largest of its kind in China.

CSSC, parent company of 60 subsidiaries covering ship building, ship repair, research and development and offshore engineering, posted a profit of more than 5 billion yuan last year,
Click to expand...
Again, why would Canada not be able to design a frigate? It's a frigate, it's not a 93000 tonne carrier. I don't even know why you are bringing Canada and a frigate into the discussion. Canada is one of the most technologically advanced country in the world.

Again, as I said, if you think China can be anywhere near South Korea's level with its first LNG carrier, I don't even know how to comment on that. It's like saying Avic-I is at the same level as Boeing/Airbus once ARJ-21 gets delivered.
 
A

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

tphuang said:
Again, as I said, if you think China can be anywhere near South Korea's level with its first LNG carrier, I don't even know how to comment on that.
Click to expand...

But this is kind of the point (although we're talking about carriers, not LNG tankers). You're arguing that there exist "stages" of technology that China needs to go through. That it's necessary for them to build (for example) a 1940's era aircraft carrier and practice with it for a while before building a 1960's era carrier, and work their way up that way.

I'm saying (and I think that Hendrik agrees) that China's first attempt, while undoubtedly behind the U.S. state-of-the-art, doesn't need to be inferior to the first Nimitz class that was commissioned in 1975.

China in 2007 has a few things going for it that the U.S. didn't have in 1975:

  • Modern computers to use in design and simulation
  • A huge civilian shipbuilding industry that's actually building much larger ships than carriers
  • More advanced manufacturing technology
  • Better technology in most subsystems (especially electronics)
  • Experienced Russian engineers from 2007 to act as consultants
  • Modern U.S. carriers to use for inspiration/design ideas

Admittedly the U.S. had more experience developing carriers, but you're claiming that this advantage in experience is enough to outweigh all the other factors. So much so that even by 2020 (45 years after the first Nimitz!) China won't be able to overcome it? I don't think this is realistic thinking at all.

... Ami.
 
A

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

tphuang said:
Again, as I said, if you think China can be anywhere near South Korea's level with its first LNG carrier, I don't even know how to comment on that.
Click to expand...

But this is kind of the point (although we're talking about carriers, not LNG tankers). You're arguing that there exist "stages" of technology that China needs to go through. That it's necessary for them to build (for example) a 1940's era aircraft carrier and practice with it for a while before building a 1960's era carrier, and work their way up that way.

I'm saying (and I think that Hendrik agrees) that China's first attempt, while undoubtedly behind the U.S. state-of-the-art, doesn't need to be inferior to the first Nimitz class that was commissioned in 1975.

China in 2007 has a few things going for it that the U.S. didn't have in 1975:

  • Modern computers to use in design and simulation
  • A huge civilian shipbuilding industry that's actually building much larger ships than carriers
  • More advanced manufacturing technology
  • Better technology in most subsystems (especially electronics)
  • Experienced Russian engineers from 2007 to act as consultants
  • Modern U.S. carriers to use for inspiration/design ideas

Admittedly the U.S. had more experience developing carriers, but you're claiming that this advantage in experience is enough to outweigh all the other factors. So much so that even by 2020 (45 years after the first Nimitz!) China won't be able to overcome it? I don't think this is realistic thinking at all.

... Ami.
 
A

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

tphuang said:
Again, as I said, if you think China can be anywhere near South Korea's level with its first LNG carrier, I don't even know how to comment on that.
Click to expand...

But this is kind of the point (although we're talking about carriers, not LNG tankers). You're arguing that there exist "stages" of technology that China needs to go through. That it's necessary for them to build (for example) a 1940's era aircraft carrier and practice with it for a while before building a 1960's era carrier, and work their way up that way.

I'm saying (and I think that Hendrik agrees) that China's first attempt, while undoubtedly behind the U.S. state-of-the-art, doesn't need to be inferior to the first Nimitz class that was commissioned in 1975.

China in 2007 has a few things going for it that the U.S. didn't have in 1975:

  • Modern computers to use in design and simulation
  • A huge civilian shipbuilding industry that's actually building much larger ships than carriers
  • More advanced manufacturing technology
  • Better technology in most subsystems (especially electronics)
  • Experienced Russian engineers from 2007 to act as consultants
  • Modern U.S. carriers to use for inspiration/design ideas

Admittedly the U.S. had more experience developing carriers, but you're claiming that this advantage in experience is enough to outweigh all the other factors. So much so that even by 2020 (45 years after the first Nimitz!) China won't be able to overcome it? I don't think this is realistic thinking at all.

... Ami.
 
S

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China will most likely be the largest ship builder by 2015 or earlier. Hard to imagine they can't build a 40k or 90k tons carrier by 2020.
Most of the tech involved are from 70s or earlier. Even countries like Australia, Brazil I think, Spain built carriers.
Just like the recently announced large aircraft project, we're not talking abt revolutionary tech here.
I think it's all abt having the industrial base, political will & budget really.
 
S

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China will most likely be the largest ship builder by 2015 or earlier. Hard to imagine they can't build a 40k or 90k tons carrier by 2020.
Most of the tech involved are from 70s or earlier. Even countries like Australia, Brazil I think, Spain built carriers.
Just like the recently announced large aircraft project, we're not talking abt revolutionary tech here.
I think it's all abt having the industrial base, political will & budget really.
 
S

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

China will most likely be the largest ship builder by 2015 or earlier. Hard to imagine they can't build a 40k or 90k tons carrier by 2020.
Most of the tech involved are from 70s or earlier. Even countries like Australia, Brazil I think, Spain built carriers.
Just like the recently announced large aircraft project, we're not talking abt revolutionary tech here.
I think it's all abt having the industrial base, political will & budget really.
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Australia and Brazil havent build, but operated carriers.
I still find it almoust hilarious how people just want to believe the best possiple version of all rumours, and simply neglet all the facts and throws out analogies that suites their version bets, without even stoping for one minute to figure themselves how "building frigates + large cortainer ships = capacity to build carriers."
And remember, China isent goign to be getting any foreing help for their project (Except Soviet blindfolded experience of those things that China at least shouldnt try to do...)
and the fact that others have done it simply doesent apply in this case. Soviets begun their carrier program when virtually all modern elements of carriers were allready invented and in good usage in France, UK and US....but still they stumbled with proplems and ill-thougth solutions, despite the fact that Even Soviet era of Russian ship building was vastly advanged by building its third generations of cruiser size ships before the first aviation vessel was laid down. Not to mention the fact that Imperial Russia was one of the leading naval minds in what comes innovativenes and courage to try all new....

China, like I have allready mentioned, is still stumbling with its first generation of destroyer level ships (and I only count generations that are par with the rest of the world, the Ludas and Luhais havent given china nothing more than crude elementary basics of how NOT to build warships.....
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Australia and Brazil havent build, but operated carriers.
I still find it almoust hilarious how people just want to believe the best possiple version of all rumours, and simply neglet all the facts and throws out analogies that suites their version bets, without even stoping for one minute to figure themselves how "building frigates + large cortainer ships = capacity to build carriers."
And remember, China isent goign to be getting any foreing help for their project (Except Soviet blindfolded experience of those things that China at least shouldnt try to do...)
and the fact that others have done it simply doesent apply in this case. Soviets begun their carrier program when virtually all modern elements of carriers were allready invented and in good usage in France, UK and US....but still they stumbled with proplems and ill-thougth solutions, despite the fact that Even Soviet era of Russian ship building was vastly advanged by building its third generations of cruiser size ships before the first aviation vessel was laid down. Not to mention the fact that Imperial Russia was one of the leading naval minds in what comes innovativenes and courage to try all new....

China, like I have allready mentioned, is still stumbling with its first generation of destroyer level ships (and I only count generations that are par with the rest of the world, the Ludas and Luhais havent given china nothing more than crude elementary basics of how NOT to build warships.....
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Ideal chinese carrier thread

Australia and Brazil havent build, but operated carriers.
I still find it almoust hilarious how people just want to believe the best possiple version of all rumours, and simply neglet all the facts and throws out analogies that suites their version bets, without even stoping for one minute to figure themselves how "building frigates + large cortainer ships = capacity to build carriers."
And remember, China isent goign to be getting any foreing help for their project (Except Soviet blindfolded experience of those things that China at least shouldnt try to do...)
and the fact that others have done it simply doesent apply in this case. Soviets begun their carrier program when virtually all modern elements of carriers were allready invented and in good usage in France, UK and US....but still they stumbled with proplems and ill-thougth solutions, despite the fact that Even Soviet era of Russian ship building was vastly advanged by building its third generations of cruiser size ships before the first aviation vessel was laid down. Not to mention the fact that Imperial Russia was one of the leading naval minds in what comes innovativenes and courage to try all new....

China, like I have allready mentioned, is still stumbling with its first generation of destroyer level ships (and I only count generations that are par with the rest of the world, the Ludas and Luhais havent given china nothing more than crude elementary basics of how NOT to build warships.....
 
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