PLAN Carrier Construction

joshuatree

Captain
Personally, I do not buy into the 1/3 size or whatever demo modules. They can build and analyze modules on the computer well enough to avoid the cost and time needed to build such models IMHO for it getting them to a decision point.

Given their ability to build the LPDs and completely refit the carrier, I think there is little doubt that their major naval shipyards are up to the task.

So then, why another STOBAR?

My opinion is that for all of the following reasons, they will build an improved Liaoning type carrier as their first indigenous carrier.

1) The Liaoning is what they know...and they know it well. It is the least risk and the least cost to get their own carrier built.

2) The cost of ownership of both the Liaoning and this new carrier are markedly less if they both operate similarly and use the same equipment. Training, maintenance, operations, all will benefit from the same logistical and policy/operations trains.

3) This allows them to continue training pilots, aircrews, deck chiefs, and continue operating both carriers with the J-15 as is, without having to redesign the front landing gear to withstand a cat launch.

4) It also gives them the ability to improve on the Liaoning as a STOBAR. Bigger hanger, smaller more efficient Island, etc.

5) Finally, it gives them an excellent opportunity to design Liaoning II with the ability to install cats at the waste position later if they so desire, so they can begin getting into the catapult operations in the future. In this way they could use the 2nd carrier (with all of the above mentioned benefits) as a stepping stone to CATOBAR too. So they design provisions for the cats into the deck and under structure of the new carrier so that later, those cats can be installed and operated when they deem it right.

Anyhow, for all of those reasons I believe such a step would be beneficial, logical, the least costly and the least risk .

If it will be an improved Liaoning, what improvements do folks think it will be? Smaller island, larger hanger have been mentioned. What about displacement? 70,000 tons? 80,000? I would include larger elevators. How about electric propulsion pods? Gas turbine?

Or any chance the modules we are seeing are lessons learned from Liaoning to build a LHA/LHD?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Uh...what guessing game?

We have been discussing the 1st picture in detail for some time so there's really nothing new there.

And the 2nd picture?

That shows an old picture of the Liaoning before it was ever completed...so probably two years old, with some kind of vessel (probably a tanker or something) building next to it.

I don't understand the point.

I think the picture was meant to demonstrate that the drydock could hold and build a liaoning sized carrier? Which is stating the obvious, imo.
 

delft

Brigadier
If it will be an improved Liaoning, what improvements do folks think it will be? Smaller island, larger hanger have been mentioned. What about displacement? 70,000 tons? 80,000? I would include larger elevators. How about electric propulsion pods? Gas turbine?

Or any chance the modules we are seeing are lessons learned from Liaoning to build a LHA/LHD?
Gas turbine electric: necessary to power cats ( even if cats are not yet fitted ), saves weight and volume, better acceleration, smaller engine room crew.
I would be very surprised to see steam or diesel power. Flattops should use gas turbines or nuclear power and integrated power systems. I wonder how small nuclear powered ships can be when Thorium reactors become available.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Gas turbine electric: necessary to power cats ( even if cats are not yet fitted ), saves weight and volume, better acceleration, smaller engine room crew.
I would be very surprised to see steam or diesel power. Flattops should use gas turbines or nuclear power and integrated power systems. I wonder how small nuclear powered ships can be when Thorium reactors become available.

If they could build SSN and SSBN I would think easily they can produce a modem nuclear power for a carrier?

Question is when they do feasibility studys they identify which will be the most practical and cheaper opition over the lifetime of the carrier, conventional or nuclear, so I don't think really it's a technological issue for China more a practical one
 

Xian

New Member
A Carrier is a little bit different kind of power-consumer than a submarine!
The french tried to simply use the power-plant of their SSBN in the Charle de Gaulle - but they had many troubles with that!
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
A Carrier is a little bit different kind of power-consumer than a submarine!
The french tried to simply use the power-plant of their SSBN in the Charle de Gaulle - but they had many troubles with that!

I'm not talking about re-fitting the Powerplant from a SSBN to a carrier I'm talking specifically about the miniaturisation technology for nuclear power plant

If they can design and build one for a submarine then sure why not for a carrier, SSBN nuclear reactor is not easy task

Main point about the Astute Class SSN for Royal Navy is that it's nuclear reactor produces huge amounts of energy in form of heat which is used to boil water which is turned into steam which is used for propulsion, essentially going back 100 years but using 21st century technology, in that sense nuclear submarine propulsion hasnt changed much from steam power

How you mange the energy is down to what the energy requirements are i.e the vessel
 

Sczepan

Senior Member
VIP Professional
English translation of your post 'Deino'

China is ready to build the first domestic carrier vessels, Jiangnan Shipyard Group General Manager, said in an interview, "the first aircraft carrier of the initial budget may be as high as 16 billion," which means that China's first aircraft carrier the cost of domestic nearly $ 3 billion, if coupled with supporting warships and carrier-based aircraft, the cost of an aircraft carrier battle groups will be more than 10 billion U.S. dollars.

Construction of China's first aircraft carrier Jiangnan Shipbuilding Group is currently China's most advanced shipyard, known as "China's first plant", its predecessor was founded in 1865, Li Jiangnan Manufacturing Bureau, already 148 years ago.
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26 August

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CHINA
Kanwa (rmks: Canada-based private think tank monitoring Asian defence issues) believes a module recently spotted at the Jiangnan Changxing shipyard (near Shanghai) and widely speculated to be part of an indigenous aircraft carrier actually is meant for a 35,000 ts amphibious assault ship which might be delivered or even put into service as early as 2015.

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delft

Brigadier
If they could build SSN and SSBN I would think easily they can produce a modem nuclear power for a carrier?

Question is when they do feasibility studys they identify which will be the most practical and cheaper opition over the lifetime of the carrier, conventional or nuclear, so I don't think really it's a technological issue for China more a practical one
A pressurized water reactor is a relatively inefficient way of producing power and therefore it makes sense not to use them in relatively small vessels. That must be one of the factors why USN CVN's are 100k.
A few numbers:
PWR max temp about 650 Kelvin
Fuel burning steam plant about 850 Kelvin
Thorium reactor about 1000 Kelvin.
At a minimum cycle temperature of about 350 Kelvin the thermal efficiency of the Thorium cycle will be about 60%, that of the PWR about 30%, so for the same mechanical power the thermal power of the Thorium reactor will be about halve of that of a PWR.
The energy produced splitting a U233 atom is about that produced splitting a U235 atom and in both cases about 2.5 neutrons will be produced. One neutron will be consumed splitting the next U235, leaving 1.5 neutrons to be adsorbed by lead shielding for the PWR. For the Thorium reactor also one is used splitting the next U233, one absorbed by a Th232 to produce the next U233 and 0.5 to be absorbed by the shielding.
Together for the same mechanical power the PWR has to absorb six times as many neutrons as the the Thorium reactor.
The Thorium reactor will therefore be smaller and is inherently lighter than a PWR and needs much less lead shielding so can be a practical power plant for a much smaller vessel.
China expects to have the technology for Thorium reactors developed by 2020 - first for civilian power plants or first for naval vessels?
It might be attractive for PLAN to have more smaller flattops rather than half as many 100k CVN's as USN.

P.S. Does someone know more accurate numbers?
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
A pressurized water reactor is a relatively inefficient way of producing power and therefore it makes sense not to use them in relatively small vessels. That must be one of the factors why USN CVN's are 100k.
Actually, outside of Nuclear carriers (which came along with the Nimitz class in the 1970s), and the nuclear submarine force, the US Navy did operate quite a few smaller nuclear powered surface combatants for several decades.

Here's all of them, with pictures, names, designations, their commissioning and decomissioning dates, as well as their displacement:


Long Beach Class Cruiser

800px-USS_Long_Beach_%28CGN-9%29_stbd_beam_view.jpg

USS Long Beach, CGN-9, 1961-1995, 15,500 tons

Bainbridge Class Destroyer/Cruiser

USS_Bainbridge_%28CGN-25%291.jpg

USS Bainbridge, CGN-25, 1962-1996, 9,100 tons (Initially commissioned a destoryer, then changed to cruiser)

Truxton Class Destroyer/Cruiser

USSTruxtunDLGN35.jpg

USS Truxton, CGN-35, 1967-1995, 8,700 tons (Initially commissioned a destoryer, then changed to cruiser)

Califronia Class Cruisers

USS_California_%28CGN-36%29.JPG

USS California, CGN-36, 1974-1999, 10,800 tons

800px-USS_South_Carolina_CGN-37_04013712.jpg

USS South Carolina, CGN-37, 1975-1999, 10,800 tons

Virginia Class Cruisers

800px-USS_Virginia_%28CGN-38%29.jpg

USS Virginia, CGN-38, 1976-1994, 11,700 tons

USS_Texas_%28CGN-39%29.JPG

USS Texas, CGN-38, 1977-1993, 11,700 tons

USS_Mississippi_%28CGN-40%29.JPG

USS Mississippi, CGN-38, 1978-1997, 11,700 tons

USS_Arkansas_CGN41.jpg

USS Akransas, CGN-38, 1980-1998, 11,700 tons

So, the US operated a total of nine nuclear powered surface combatants ranging in displacement from 8,100 tons up to 15,500 tons, for a total of 38 years. None of them had any helo hanger, just a landing spot.

The later Virginia Class would still be operating today, but it was too costly to upgrade their armament (double arm launchers and missle stores) along with their sensors to the VLS AEGIS standard. Those AEGIS vessels were simply much more effective in excorting the carriers.

So they were all decommissioned early (between 1993 and 1996) and replaced by conventionally powered AEGIS cruisers (and now detroyers) all of which had far stronger anit-air and anti-missile defense, stronger ASW defense, and were built to be able to be upgraded with the newer technology.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
Actually, outside of Nucler carriers (which came along with the Nimitz class in the 1970s), and the nuclear submarine force, the US Navy did operate quite a few smaller nuclear powered surface combatants for several decades.

So, the US operated a total of nine nuclear powere surface combatants ranging in displacement from 8,100 tons up to 15,500 tons, for a total of 38 years. None of them had any helo hanger, just a landing spot.

The later Virginia Class would still be operating today, but it was too costly to upgrade their double arm launchers and missle stores along with their sensors to the VLS AEGIS standard, so they wetre decommissioned early and replaced by conventionally powered AEGIS cruisers (and now detroyers) all of which carried two helicopters.

Why did the US Navy decided to decommissioned those nuclear powered surface combatants? It would make sense to have it because they are a part of the CVN battle group therefore don't have to rely on fuel for conventional power.
 
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