PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Before or after the DF-21D warhead changes its flight profile during descent? This is not your any ordinary ballistic missile we're talking about.
No doubt the maneuvering terminal warhead will present challenges to the SM-2 and SM-6, but it will not be maneuvering during its exo-atmospheric flight, and will be quiet vulnerable to the SM-3.

No weapon can guarantee a 100% kill rate, not DF-21D, nor any SMs. That's why military always has to fire multiple shoots to get something like 90%. A working ASBM does not make carrier obsolete, but it is the most credible threat to a CBG. That threat itself makes an once invincible weapon just one out of many. Something like pulling an alpha wolf off the throne of the pack. I think PLAN does not expect more than that.
I still think a submarine is the most credible threat to a carrier, not the ASBM. It has too many vulnerabilities at this time and is just one of many non-gamechanging threats to a carrier designed to complicate its deployment to and operations within a theater.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
No doubt the maneuvering terminal warhead will present challenges to the SM-2 and SM-6, but it will not be maneuvering during its exo-atmospheric flight, and will be quiet vulnerable to the SM-3.


I still think a submarine is the most credible threat to a carrier, not the ASBM. It has too many vulnerabilities at this time and is just one of many non-gamechanging threats to a carrier designed to complicate its deployment to and operations within a theater.

Not so sure what you mean by exo-atmospheric. But ballistic missile is most vulnerable at midcourse . All the ABM work on the principle of predicted parabolic path of missile which start with boost period, midcourse phase and terminal attack.

But what happened if the missile doesn't follow this predicted path and completely eliminated the midcourse by skipping in and out of atmosphere like kid game of pebble throw on water surface?.

Or use very flat trajectory?. Thing doesn't stay static . Anyway the sofar the SM3 test involve only unitary body with predictable trajectory. It was never test against swarm of decoy or maneuverable warhead! Postol and Lewis question the accuracy of the test citing the test never involve warhead and what is hit is the rocket body but not the warhead
 
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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Not so sure what you mean by exo-atmospheric. But ballistic missile is most vulnerable at midcourse . All the ABM work on the principle of predicted parabolic path of missile which start with boost period, midcourse phase and terminal attack.

But what happened if the missile doesn't follow this predicted path and completely eliminated the midcourse by skipping in and out of atmosphere like kid game of pebble throw on water surface?.

Or use very flat trajectory?. Thing doesn't stay static . Anyway the sofar the SM3 test involve only unitary body with predictable trajectory. It was never test against swarm of decoy or maneuverable warhead! Postol and Lewis question the accuracy of the test citing the test never involve warhead and what is hit is the rocket body but not the warhead
I've not heard that the DF-21D is maneuvering during mid-course. Where did you read this? As far as I know MARVs maneuver during terminal phase under the guidance of their onboard EO/radar seekers to finalize their approach. Remember that we are not talking about the Wu-14/HGV that does not actually have an exo-atmospheric flight profile and does "maneuver" during its mid-course phase, but as a means of speed and altitude control and not as far as anyone knows as a means of evading interceptors.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
I too have not heard of the DF-21D making maneuvers mid-course. The DF-ZF (Wu-14) HGV is designed for that very purpose. To evade mid-course interceptors. But that still in testing. The only systems in service(?) as far is we know that employees an evasive payload delivery system is the Topol-M system. Successful 1st test was in 2005. The DF-ZF should enter service within a decade perhaps around 2025.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I too have not heard of the DF-21D making maneuvers mid-course. The DF-ZF (Wu-14) HGV is designed for that very purpose. To evade mid-course interceptors.
I think we should be careful in using the word "evade" in this context, because the Wu-14 AFAIK is designed to eliminate a mid-course exo-atmospheric flight profile altogether and therefore render itself immune to mid-course interceptors, but it does not actually evade during mid-course in the sense of active maneuvers designed to shake off incoming interceptors; after all what's the point of this if it is already untargetable by the likes of SM-3 which is an exo-atmospheric-only mid-course interceptor. I believe like the DF-21D it can maneuver during its terminal approach for the purpose of evading interceptors and finalizing its point of impact.
 
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delft

Brigadier
During WWII Eugen Sänger worked on long range rockets, among others to bomb New York. The range of the rocket was extended by skipping in and out of the atmosphere. This idea might be used to extend the range and the manoevrebility of an anti-carrier missile. DF-21D is unlikely to be the end point of such weapon systems.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I've not heard that the DF-21D is maneuvering during mid-course. Where did you read this? As far as I know MARVs maneuver during terminal phase under the guidance of their onboard EO/radar seekers to finalize their approach. Remember that we are not talking about the Wu-14/HGV that does not actually have an exo-atmospheric flight profile and does "maneuver" during its mid-course phase, but as a means of speed and altitude control and not as far as anyone knows as a means of evading interceptors.

The problem with PAC 3, is that the whole concept rest on a predicted hyperbolic or elliptic trajectory. That is a big if. What happened if China doesn't follow the script ?. Because there are other Ballistic Trajectory. Topol M use flat trajectory and maneuverable war head.

It is not inconceivable that China will incorporate lesson learn from WU-14 into ASBM warhead. After all the missile is the same .All they have to do is tinkering with the warhead release timing and control software.
. They definitely thinking the follow on model.Remarkably the whole precision strike program is headed by a woman.This article show up in 2010 after ASBM IOC
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WU 14 did some maneuvering by pulling up and then glide. I don't believe that WU-14 IOC will be that long normally ballistic test period is between 10-12 trial before it went IOC. Here is the good article on PAC 3 vs ASBM

China’s ASBMs vs America’s Interceptors
03/17/2016 02:39 pm ET | Updated 19 hours ago

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Peter Navarro
Author of Crouching Tiger and Death By China books and films

Can China’s anti-ship ballistic missile really hit an American aircraft carrier zigzagging at 30 knots in the Taiwan Strait? That remains unclear as there is no record of China successfully testing its growing suite of “carrier killer” missiles on a moving target at sea.

This uncertainty leaves the door open to the possibility that Beijing’s ASBM hype is merely a Sun Tzu ruse to prod America into spending countless billions on new weapons to defend against a chimera.

Ruse or not, the theoretical beauty of China’s ASBM lies in at least three dimensions:

A relatively low “asymmetric warfare” cost to the carriers it targets
An ability to “outrange” America’s carriers with their current air wings
Mach 10 speed, verticality, and maneuverability as it approaches its target
In reality, there are four basic ways to neutralize China’s ASBM threat, and these “four corners” of an American ASBM defense are not mutually exclusive.

Strategy #1: Interceptor Missiles
The US and its allies have been rapidly moving ahead in the development of interceptor missiles. Some poster children for the interceptor missile response are growing up in the “Standard Missile” series being fathered by Raytheon.

For example, the SM-3 is geared towards “mid-course defense” - hitting an ASBM early in its trajectory at longer distances and higher altitudes and possibly even in space. In contrast, the SM-6 Dual specializes more in “terminal defense” should an ASBM break through the SM-3 perimeter - and it is equally potent against incoming cruise missiles.

While each of these missiles have been successfully tested against isolated missile threats, the Achilles Heel of a missile interceptor strategy is its possible inability to counter the kinds of swarming cruise and ballistic missile attacks that China’s Second Artillery Corps is likely to launch. Such “salvoing” does indeed present both economic and operational problems.

Economically, missile interceptor missiles are costly, e.g., about $10 million a pop for the SM-3 and $4 million for the SM-6. Operationally, the question arises to whether you can even fit enough missiles into a strike group’s magazines to shoot down all of the missiles in repeated Chinese swarms - much less fire these missile interceptors fast enough to prevent a mission kill.


Strategy #2: Outranging China’s Carrier Killer
In a seminal report published by the Center for a New American Security in October of 2015, Dr. Jerry Hendrix documented the deadly decline in the range of American aircraft carrier strike groups since the end of World War II. The problem here is not with the carriers themselves but rather with their air wings, which now feature shorter-range fighters.

To see the historical problem framed by Hendrix, consider that the average unrefueled combat range of an American carrier has shrunk from over 1,200 nautical miles in 1958 and over 900 nautical miles in 1986 to less than 500 nautical miles today. In contrast, the range of China’s DF21-D antiship ballistic missile is between 800 and 1,000 nautical miles.

The obvious strategy here to save aircraft carriers as a viable fighting platform is to focus once again on range. To Hendrix, one way to work this problem is to develop “a new long-range, deep strike asset in line with the A-3 Skywarrior and A-6 Intruder of the past that could take off from a carrier, fly more than 1,500 nm, penetrate a dense anti-air network of sensors and missiles, deliver multiple weapons on target, and then return to the carrier.”

In Hendrix’s vision, the most logical means to do this is through “an unmanned platform” along the lines of the X-47B that was cancelled in 2006. The plane remains on life support as a test vehicle that has successfully completed carrier landings, but it is literally “waiting in the wings.”

2016-03-15-1458062561-9641869-aircraftcarrierhit.jpg
Caption: An American Carrier Struck By A Chinese ASBM

Strategy #3: Destroy China ASBMs On Their Launch Pads
This option immediately brings to mind the contentious AirSea Battle vs. Offshore Control debate that has raged for years over whether it is prudent to strike the Chinese mainland should China launch an attack on American carriers or forward bases. Suffice it to say that any strike on the Chinese mainland would invite possible strikes on the American homeland, possibly nuclear strikes.

There is also the logistical “whack a mole” matter of whether it is even possible to accurately target Chinese ASBMs moving randomly about on camouflaged mobile missile launchers and on rail tracks beneath the Great Underground Wall of China.

That said, this strategy should not be ruled out publicly for one obvious strategic reason: Any American promise to never strike the Chinese mainland would establish that mainland as a sanctuary and turn American carriers and forward bases into sitting ducks for the Second Artillery Corps.

Strategy #4: Force Restructuring
The most common form of the force restructuring argument goes like this: “If China’s ASBMs can sink our carriers, we should rely more on submarines.”

Here’s one problem: No amount of newly constructed Virginia attack class submarines can make up for the ability of an aircraft carrier to establish air dominance in critical theaters of war. Thus, while building more submarines to control the chokepoints of the First Island Chain should China attack the US or its treaty allies is an essential part of any true “pivot” to Asia, it is no panacea.

*******
At the end of the day, China’s ASBM threat needs to be addressed using all four corners of an American defense. Even if these missiles don’t yet fully deliver on their promise, the technology certainly exists and sooner or later our carriers will be at risk.

In the meantime, defense analysts must get out of their comfort zone and start thinking more about how interactions between economics, trade, and national security are now shaping the battlefield. The obvious strategic question here is this: Is it wise for American to engage in massive economic trade with a nation that is using the fruits of such trade to finance the construction of a war machine that increasingly threatens the US and its allies?
_________________________
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This is the article I was referring about the automatic detection system. Vincent with your permission I use your post about the lead scientist of the program

A researcher got promoted to the head of an institute within the Strategic Support Corp
He designed an automated space sensing system for moving targets in the oceans, built a database of unique (oceanic) objects.

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澎湃新闻记者 岳怀让

2016-04-09 13:54 来自 人事风向

4月9日出版的《解放军报》在5版摘登了15名军队科研单位、院校领导和院士专家代表在深入贯彻创新驱动发展战略座谈会上的发言。
其中,中国科学院院士周志鑫以战略支援部队某局局长的身份亮相。
周志鑫表示,在人才培养和使用方面,抓好军队创新人才基础工程建设,突出高端科技人才的培养使用,将军队创新人才纳入国家创新人才体系,试点设立军队高端科技人才特区,以战斗力标准为根本导向,重点支持在国防军事科技重要领域的科学家和团队。
公开报道显示,周志鑫此前曾在总参二部航侦局任职,还曾以北京市遥感信息研究所所长亮相。
据中科院学部官网介绍,周志鑫1965年8月生于安徽太湖县,籍贯安徽太湖,1986年毕业于电子工程学院,1989年和1997年于哈尔滨工业大学获硕士和博士学位。
周志鑫是一名空间遥感应用专家,长期从事空间遥感理论与应用技术研究,在典型地物特征检测识别、海上移动目标高精度探测定位技术等方面取得了多项创新性成果。
周志鑫系统研究并发展了天基海洋探测定位和海上移动目标自动检测方法,提出并建立了空间遥感数据存储、处理和应用架构,研究解决了卫星海量数据高效高精度自动处理和应用的关键技术问题,研究建立了典型地物目标特征库。
另 据《解放军报》今年1月报道,周志鑫和团队多年来协作进取,取得了一个个不俗成绩:2人入选新世纪百千万人才工程国家级人选,1人获何梁何利科技创新 奖,5人获“求是”奖,1人获国家“863”突出贡献奖,2人入选军队高层次科技创新人才工程,先后获国家科技进步特等奖1项、一等奖1项,国家技术发明 二等奖1项,军队科技进步一等奖9项。

Personnel from the wind 2016-04-09 13:54

April 9 issue of "Liberation Army Daily" in the Version 5 Excerpts of 15 military research institutes, colleges and universities on behalf of the leaders and academicians and experts in thoroughly implement the innovation-driven development strategy statement on the forum.
Among them, the Chinese Academy of Sciences Zhou Zhixin as a support unit for a strategic Secretary debut.
Zhou Zhixin said in personnel training and use, innovative talents grasp military infrastructure construction, the focus on the use of high-end scientific and technological personnel, the military personnel into the national innovation system, innovative talents, high-end technology to military pilot SAR personnel to combat standards fundamentally oriented, focusing on important areas of science and technology in national defense and military scientists and teams.
Public reports indicate Zhou Zhixin had worked in the General Staff two aerial reconnaissance bureau office, was also director of the Beijing Institute of Remote Sensing Information appearances.
According CASAD official website, Zhou Zhixin August 1965 Born in Taihu County, Anhui, a native of Anhui Taihu Lake, in 1986 graduated from the School of Electronic Engineering, in 1989 and 1997 in the Harbin Institute of Technology received a master's and doctoral degrees.
Zhou Zhixin is a space remote sensing applications experts, engaged in research and application of space remote sensing technology theory, we made a number of innovative achievements in typical object feature detection and recognition, maritime moving target detection precision positioning technology.
Zhou Zhixin system research and development of space-based ocean exploration and marine positioning automatically moving target detection methods, and proposed the establishment of a space remote sensing data storage, processing and application architecture, study and solve the efficiency and precision of satellite mass data processing and application of key technologies of automatic questions, study the establishment of a typical ground object signatures.
According to the "Liberation Army Daily" reported in January this year, Zhou Zhixin and team collaboration over the years ahead, and made one impressive results: 2 were selected in the New Century Talents Project national candidates, one Ho Leung Ho Lee Science and Technology Innovation Award five people received "seeking Truth" award, one person won the national "863" outstanding contribution award, two were selected army of high-level technological innovation projects, has won the national scientific and technological progress 1, a first prize, national technical Invention a military scientific and technological progress award 9.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
The problem with PAC 3, is that the whole concept rest on a predicted hyperbolic or elliptic trajectory. That is a big if. What happened if China doesn't follow the script ?. Because there are other Ballistic Trajectory. Topol M use flat trajectory and maneuverable war head.

It is not inconceivable that China will incorporate lesson learn from WU-14 into ASBM warhead. After all the missile is the same .All they have to do is tinkering with the warhead release timing and control software.
. They definitely thinking the follow on model.Remarkably the whole precision strike program is headed by a woman.This article show up in 2010 after ASBM IOC
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WU 14 did some maneuvering by pulling up and then glide. I don't believe that WU-14 IOC will be that long normally ballistic test period is between 10-12 trial before it went IOC. Here is the good article on PAC 3 vs ASBM
PAC 3 is in the same boat as SM-6 and SM-2, that is, they are terminal interceptors, not mid-course interceptors like the SM-3. I don't see anything in the article about the ASBM maneuvering during mid-course to avoid interceptors.
 
During WWII Eugen Sänger worked on long range rockets, among others to bomb New York. ...
... Manhattan, to be precise LOL! it was kinda space-shuttle which had been to land at Truk (Caroline Islands if I'm not mistaken, a dozen (?) thousand miles away from Europe) ... it shows how the German Nazis were gullible (Hitla believed in
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etc.): the CEP of bombing Manhattan was officially presented to them (with the details of aiming a bomb falling from one hundred plus km altitude probably skipped), funds obtained :)
 
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