PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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latenlazy

Brigadier
True, but than why replace the steam catapult with EMALS if they're not that much of a difference? Now if we're talking about crew maintenance and capability at sea...than there is a difference between the two systems. Human learning the system and with training can adapt with the EMAL system over the steam one, so that's no problem.

More compact, lower impact on airframes , easier to maintain, more robust during combat etc. It's not that the technology isn't worth having. It's just that when it comes down to it the most fundamental parameter is can it get your plane into the sky at full load, and operating your carrier is primarily about that and not all the other nice things. Whether you have those benefits is about making your life easier. Whether you have the capability can make or break you. Engineer's argument is not unreasonable, but it's not the only reasonable argument.
 
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Engineer

Major
No, IMHO, that does not follow at all.

Someone like Kwaig did not just live on a carrier like it was an apartment. He worked on it 24x7 and had to be available to do jobs that dealt with the aircraft and their systems that maintained, launched, and flew them. In other words, he was working with the very systems we are discussing.

If you lived in an apartment building and worked there on the maintenance of the building structure as your full time job, that might be a closer analaogy...and if you did, you would be in a much better position to speak about those very subsystems as well.
No. The argument follows perfectly. The rationale is that doing maintenance makes one a maintenance worker, not an engineer. While I don't dispute someone's claim of having worked on board a carrier, that's quite a different experience from working as senior manager on carrier design.

It's not just "whatever technologies are available," it is a proven, reliable, and very workable technology that will successfully launch the aircraft the PLAN currently has, and those they they are planning for their carriers that they do not have yet. (IE, AEW, EW, ASW, etc.)

The PLAN will drive to get the critical CAPBAILITY a CATOBAR carrier offers so they can achieve their maritime goals. If the more advanced technology is available or almost available in the time frame they want CATOBAR, then they will use it. If not, they will use a perfectly acceptable and workable existingg technology in the mean time to get the true capability they are looking for...and then fold in the advanced tech later.
If PLAN sources the catapults from US, then this argument about proven, reliable, and very workable technology would work. However,this isn't the case for China's steam catapult, assuming they did make one.

Steam Cats and EMALS cats are both tools...means to an end...and the end is launching fully capable and armed aircraft with as much full load as possible to be able to perform the power projection that the PRC desires. That's the goal and they will not put that goal off very long at all to simply get a little better tool to do it with. That's not to say it is not a good thing to get the new tool...it is. But better to have a CATOBAR capability that is 95% when you need it, then to have no CATOBAR capabilitiy in that regard while waiting for the 100%.
I do not agree obtaining CATOBAR capability is their only goal. It doesn't make sense, both logically and statistically, since carrier is such a complex piece of equipment there have to be other considerations.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I do not agree obtaining CATOBAR capability is their only goal. It doesn't make sense, both logically and statistically, since carrier is such a complex piece of equipment there have to be other considerations.

However, having the capability itself can weigh in the decision making more than every other factor, since the capability itself is ultimately the entire point.
 

Engineer

Major
To purposely pick prop 'fighters' and compare it to steam catapults is not even close comparing apples to apples. Besides if you truly want to compare legacy technologies you should at least compare prop in general (as oppose to just fighters) to jet turbines in which case I think planes like C-130s, A400M, E2D Hawkeyes whose production line will continue for many decades more would like to have a word and that's not even counting the civilian market which has dozens more.

As for nitpicking 'old' tech still relevant today I can name dozens of legacy tech that is still used and produced today. the Colt 1911 comes to mind.. it is more than 100 yrs old and it is still being used and widely produced today in large numbers inspite of great advances made in firearms technologies.
The prop fighters analogy mirrors the argument justifying old technologies on future vessels. So, I'm glad you point out the ridiculousness of the prop fighter statement, since it reflects the ridiculous of the justification for steam catapults. Old technologies may be good, but that does not necessary make them good for future use. The keyword here is future, not existing.

Like you said Nimitz is 'forced' to use steam cat because that was part of the original design spec however as we have all speculated here Liaoning #2 and possibly #3 are ALSO based on an old design even if it's a new built even though it didn't have a catapult in the original design. EMALs and it's powerband requirements are still a relatively new technology in the US and certainly much newer to China. I just do not believe PLAN will put EMALS in their next carrier for the the reason I already stated in my previous post. They are possibly building Liaoning #2 NOW as we speak and even if they have not cut their first steel I am almost certain the design phase is all but finalized. I do however believe they will put EMALS in their INDIGENOUS carrier which me and many others here believe will be a full flat deck CV.

Just to summarized, I never said EMALS was bad not have I ever said steam cats are better than EMALS. All I'm saying is if you build a ship TODAY unless you are USN odds are you WON'T put EMALS on her!
Design? I do not believe I have used that word. With regards to the Nimitz class, what I intend to say is that these ships are built with steam catapults and are forced to stick with steam catapults until retirement as consequence. It has nothing to do with design, so whether Liaoning design can incorporate catapults is not the point of contention.

My argument is never about PLAN's next indigenous carrier will feature EMALS. Rather, my argument is that it is not likely for PLAN's indigenous carriers to feature steam catapults, with logistic issues being the major rationale. I have pointed out on more than one occasions that PLAN will not use EMALS if they feel the system is not ready. I think people need to stop twisting my statements.
 

Engineer

Major
I have a new name for you.. Mr. Strawman :)

In all seriousness if you actually do "WORK" in and on different types of buildings etc then yes you are correct, you will have more credibility than someone who just works inside a building but then that someone who just works inside a building will have more knowledge about buildings in general than someone who spent all his life living in a jungle and slept on trees.
My statement is a valid argument, so your implication of me making the strawman fallacy simply does not work.

Working in buildings does not make one an architect. Even if a person took part in the construction, it still does not make him an architect. Likewise, a person who have worked on board of a carrier does not mean that person is an authoritative source on how to go about designing a carrier. Working on board a ship and design a ship are simply two different concepts, so don't take this personally.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Not so. What you described above is that a new ship is more efficient, which is a different concept to EMALS being more efficient. When people talk about efficiency, the are referring to the following cascades.

For steam catapult:
Energy storage -> work

For EMALS:
Energy storage -> work

In a steam catapult, majority of the energy is lost before becoming work. You can even see this lost in the form of steam leaking from the catapult during launch of an aircraft.

Well, saying that one layer of the cascade is more efficient than the other is moot. How is the energy storage created? - First law of thermal dynamics? lets take it from the thermal energy start; nuclear reaction or chemical combustion being the source energy.

For steam catapult:
1) Thermal energy is used to heat water to steam, and to desalinate makeup water (distilling)
2) Steam pressure is released in piston and convert pressure into work

For EMALS:
1) Thermal energy is used to generate steam to push a turbine
2) The turbine is used to drive a fly wheel
3) The fly wheel is used to drive an generator which generates electrical current
4) the electrical currents drives the magnetic rail to produce work.

So yes step 4 of EMAL may be more efficiency than step 2 for steam catapults; but what about the other steps?

If I have a bunker fuel turbine power source; thermal efficiency to steam is ~99.5%, max generator efficiency is ~50% on a really good turbine. (which is why modern destroyers uses turbine drive with electrical motors for propulsion; generating steam is efficient, but converting steam to shaft power - the whole process have an efficiency of ~30%). But the point being is, steam for steam cats are an efficient process. - but maybe if the study includes propulsion, then it could be different.

Then again all of this is relatively moot for a nuclear powered carrier. The reactor is what, 3-5% efficient? thats already sufficient energy to generate enough steam to do both.

Again, my point being that EMAL is not necessarily more efficient (and hence cheaper) than steam cat; vis-a-vis, it is most likely that steam cats are more efficient

In case of catapults, energy efficiency is not such a big concern, especially on nuclear powered ships. EMALs are revolutionary because (theoretically :D ) they have smaller size then steam cats, need less maintenance, have even acceleration and could launch heavier or lighter aircraft then steam cats .

I think, the pros and cons for EMALs are well discussed, electro-mechanical transmissions had been in discussion for a long time for exactly the same reasons; it is a concept that worked well in ship/subs propulsion and trains; but fails horribly in some land vehicle design (Porsche Tiger/Elephant, Soviet IS-6, and other tanks) which proved that maintenance is more than traditional mechanical drive systems.

The reason they work well in destroyers and trains, but not in tanks is more due to the power pack, large vehicles maintenance is performed by just hauling out the turbine unit and replacing it with one that had been maintained in a shipyard or train yard. Thats why maintenance for the crew is less and simiplier. But for tanks, like the Abrams, maintenance had to be done on the vehicle which then becomes very tough due to the space constraints.

So the fabled less maintenance... I will believe it when I see it, right now to me it is only a sales pitch.

The other stuff, steam cats can do as well, just need to update the design.

More even acceleration? -> Characteristic Control Valve design, and Hi-Lo pressure design

Heavier aircraft launch? -> max load is determined by EM rail capacity and steam pressure tube design.. so it is not something that EMAL have an advantage of, it is a question of design

Lighter aircraft launch? -> use less current, use less steam, both can be done; just need to update the steam cat design to allow it, with less steam loss.
 

Engineer

Major
Apparently, 90 female sailors are serving aboard Liaoning.

If anyone has reliable info. on the barrel count for the Type 1030 CIWS, please share with us. Thank you.

13247714773_702dacf78e_o.jpg

With such a high resolution image, we are still unable to count the number of barrels.
 

Engineer

Major
Well, saying that one layer of the cascade is more efficient than the other is moot. How is the energy storage created? - First law of thermal dynamics? lets take it from the thermal energy start; nuclear reaction or chemical combustion being the source energy.

For steam catapult:
1) Thermal energy is used to heat water to steam, and to desalinate makeup water (distilling)
2) Steam pressure is released in piston and convert pressure into work

For EMALS:
1) Thermal energy is used to generate steam to push a turbine
2) The turbine is used to drive a fly wheel
3) The fly wheel is used to drive an generator which generates electrical current
4) the electrical currents drives the magnetic rail to produce work.

So yes step 4 of EMAL may be more efficiency than step 2 for steam catapults; but what about the other steps?

If I have a bunker fuel turbine power source; thermal efficiency to steam is ~99.5%, max generator efficiency is ~50% on a really good turbine. (which is why modern destroyers uses turbine drive with electrical motors for propulsion; generating steam is efficient, but converting steam to shaft power - the whole process have an efficiency of ~30%). But the point being is, steam for steam cats are an efficient process. - but maybe if the study includes propulsion, then it could be different.

Then again all of this is relatively moot for a nuclear powered carrier. The reactor is what, 3-5% efficient? thats already sufficient energy to generate enough steam to do both.

Again, my point being that EMAL is not necessarily more efficient (and hence cheaper) than steam cat; vis-a-vis, it is most likely that steam cats are more efficient.
You forgot to take in account of major sink of energy, which is the fact that the steam catapult itself leaks as the piston is propelled forward.

In any case, it is known that a steam catapult is only 5~6% efficient. It has also be stated by multiple sources that EMALS is more efficient than a steam catapult. EMALS is more efficient, period, and has nothing to do with other systems on the ship.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
No. The argument follows perfectly. The rationale is that doing maintenance makes one a maintenance worker, not an engineer. While I don't dispute someone's claim of having worked on board a carrier, that's quite a different experience from working as senior manager on carrier design.
Who said kwaig was a "maintenance worker?" The US Navy ratings are significantly more complicated and involved than that, particularly in the area kwaig was working with the air boss. You are making assumptions about things you are not familiar with in arriving at your conclusion and that can create significant fallacy.

If PLAN sources the catapults from US, then this argument about proven, reliable, and very workable technology would work. However,this isn't the case for China's steam catapult, assuming they did make one.
The technology is proven and reliable. I must presume that if the Chinese build a catobar carrier, and place a steam catapult system on it, that they will have tested it and proven its reliability beforehand.

That is a given in such discussions about what they may or may not use. Otherwise, the same conclusion would extend be to emals installed by the Chinese. As the US uses them and proves them reliable (which is going to happen on the carrier but has already occurred on land), the logical conclusion to this thinking would be that the PLAN would have to obtain those too from the US. But I have faith that the PLAN will install a technology (whichever they use) that is proven and works on their carrier.

I do not agree obtaining CATOBAR capability is their only goal. It doesn't make sense, both logically and statistically, since carrier is such a complex piece of equipment there have to be other considerations.
I never said it was their only goal. Go back and read what I wrote. I said obtaining a catobar capability would be their principle goal. That capability entails a catapult launch. Steam is a reliable, proven method. EMALS looks like it will be too. They will use the tool they have at the time they decide they need that capability. If steam is available, and emals is still a distance off, they will use steam to gain the advantage of that capability because that capability impacts their maritime power projection goals and can be achieved with either.

Which, when you boil it all down, is the point kwaig was making all along. And I agree completely with it.

It's obvious you do not. Time will tell.
 

delft

Brigadier
Again, I think if the PLAN wants nuclear carriers that displace far more than the Liaoning, maintaining steam cats and EMALS at the same time may not be that big a deal, since they'd have to worry about maintenance and refit of two different classes anyways.
That's a BIG IF. The time for one hyper power or a couple of super powers is going and in future there will be place for a dozen major powers. In that circumstance a larger number of smaller flattops might well be found more suitable for PLAN, say about Liaoning size.
 
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