PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

SinoSoldier · Mar 17, 2014

Engineer said:
The issue isn't about whether China has a steam catapult research program. We have been pretty sure on the existence such program for a long time, since we know of the country's interest in the catapult on board the HMAS Melbourne. So, POP3 isn't actually telling us anything new.

The real issue is whether China will put a production version of a steam catapult into service. This is an issue that is still being debated, and what POP3 has said does not answer this question.

Here is my take on it. If China go with a steam catapult now, then they would not be able to swap the catapults out for EMALS on a later date. It would be incredibly expensive, as China would be forced into keeping separated logistic systems for single digit number of steam catapults and EMALS. Also, the next carrier China will build is expected to be a modification of the Liaoning, whereas a domestic flattop featuring catapults isn't expected for at least another ten years. As more research goes into EMALS during this period, the value of maturity in steam catapult research will diminish. So as time pass, there will be less and less reasons for China to go with steam catapult. In summary, the arguments presented by POP3 for steam catapults just aren't convincing.

A couple of things should be noted:

1. There is an expanding pool of rumors and news pieces that claim that two carriers are under construction simultaneously. It was first leaked by the governor, who claimed that two carriers are being built. That was then backed up by the news that the major Chinese shipyard has been offered two super shipbuilding contracts. Then there are statements made by officials years before.

2. If the Chinese were really putting all of their effort on the EMALS, the steam cats would not have gone under development. The Chinese know how much time is needed to make such a device and would not have approved it had there not been a chance for it to serve either as the prime catapult on the carriers or as a backup.

3. Considering that two carriers are being built, there is considerable probability that the situation would be similar to that of the 052C and 051C. One would theoretically be an upgraded Kuznetsov while the other would have more radical changes to it. Having two platforms allows the freedom to maneuver within the PLAN in terms of technology and would at least offer a backup in case the EMALS does not work out

Blitzo · Mar 17, 2014

Sinosoldier, regarding point one, he never said that two carriers were under construction, I believe he said China's second carrier was under construction, with liaoning being China's first carrier.

There have been other rumours suggesting china may be building two carriers concurrently, but we don't know.

Lezt · Mar 17, 2014

SinoSoldier said:
A couple of things should be noted:

2. If the Chinese were really putting all of their effort on the EMALS, the steam cats would not have gone under development. The Chinese know how much time is needed to make such a device and would not have approved it had there not been a chance for it to serve either as the prime catapult on the carriers or as a backup.

I don't agree, steam cats can easily be insurance even if EMAL is the main push. Honestly, why not put some money in R&D or espionage for a mid last century technology; it is not going to be expensive. Why risk having EMAL fail with no alternative? it is just risk management and China is obviously rich enough and having sufficient skilled people to do it.

Blitzo · Mar 17, 2014

This entire question of whether the first PLAN CATOBAR carrier will be steam or EMALS depends entirely on when the PLAN started their steam cat research and how far they are along with it at present, versus the same question for EMALS.

The last few posts by by78 suggest the PLAN steam catapult programme might span back many decades, in which case they might actually have a steam cat ready for service now versus an EMALS in five years, for example.

Question of logistics and infrastructure might be less important than we think, because the PLAN have built limited production vessels in the recent past before settling on mass production.

irischloe · Mar 18, 2014

by78 said:
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This thread has more info. on Chinese carrier plans from 'POP3', who is apparently an insider with an excellent track record in providing accurate information; he could be an 'official leaker'.

Chinese speakers here, please help me summarize, as my Chinese is rudimentary and am hopeless in comprehending internet slangs.

Many thanks in advance!

I am from Hong Kong and may summarize these thread for you

1.) "POP 3" suggest there is no point for PLA to having a EMALS on board as the main concert now is first to "HAVE" a reliable catapult system. Whether it is advanced in tech. is not that important as the recent geopolitical environment doesn't allow to have any further delay in carrier construction.

2.) Steam catapult system would be a certain thing to be install at 2nd gen. carrier (002 it means), 001A implied already in construction and would be a modified version of Liaoning (without catapult system for sure), which the bad ship hull design in Liaoning restrict the proper training and limiting carrier operation experience.

3.) Steam catapult system is matured in China, which research can chase back to 1980s., the satellite photo of catapult system at internet previously are actually a steam catapult system rather than EMALS, EMALS research just started few years and still remains at researching status and still highly unreliable in practice(even to USN).

4.) However, EMALS and steam system is not in contradiction, PLA want the most advanced tech. be obtained but not with a big jump into it. POP 3 take india as a counter example in this case.

thunderchief · Mar 18, 2014

Watch for J-15 with modified nose gear to allow catapult operations.

If you see something like that it means that China does have plans to build CATOBAR carrier soon and therefore they have chosen steam technology - for now.

Chish · Mar 18, 2014

Bltizo said:
This entire question of whether the first PLAN CATOBAR carrier will be steam or EMALS depends entirely on when the PLAN started their steam cat research and how far they are along with it at present, versus the same question for EMALS.

The last few posts by by78 suggest the PLAN steam catapult programme might span back many decades, in which case they might actually have a steam cat ready for service now versus an EMALS in five years, for example.

Question of logistics and infrastructure might be less important than we think, because the PLAN have built limited production vessels in the recent past before settling on mass production.

Read Wikipedia "HMAS MELBOURNE (R21)" ending of 3rd paragraft will give us an idea of how long they have been active.

by78 · Mar 18, 2014

Apparently, 90 female sailors are serving aboard Liaoning.

If anyone has reliable info. on the barrel count for the Type 1030 CIWS, please share with us. Thank you.

asif iqbal · Mar 18, 2014

Lezt said:
I don't agree, steam cats can easily be insurance even if EMAL is the main push. Honestly, why not put some money in R&D or espionage for a mid last century technology; it is not going to be expensive. Why risk having EMAL fail with no alternative? it is just risk management and China is obviously rich enough and having sufficient skilled people to do it.

There is no such thing as being "rich enough" no one is ever rich enough certainly no defence budget is rich enough

When you have big navy bringing down the unit cost is paramount

It costs in excess of $7 million per day to keep a carrier strike group deployed on average if you have 4 CSG deployed per year which is typical of the USN that's more than $10 billion in operating costs alone let alone the overhauls and mid life upgrades

This is for a 4 Nimitz Class the price for 4 Ford Class would be 10% lower due it's better efficiency in fact a Ford Class over a 50 year cycle has a $4 billion saving over a 11 carrier fleet that's $44 billion in savings pretty much equivalent to 3-4 x Ford Class so you are getting 11 carriers for the price of 7-8

All electric system, EMALS and the absence of steam makes ships much more efficient which has long term benifits all world navy's knows this and everyone is getting intelligent how to save money while increasing the capability

Liaoning is not the best design and it's not most efficient so Chinas next carrier will bridge these gaps

Cats and Traps or EMALS for Chinas next carrier? Well that question no one knows I have tried to highlight the benifits of the latter

bd popeye · Mar 18, 2014

Ahh ha!..Found this on sina..

03.17.2014...There are 90 female PLAN (Chinese) sailors aboard the PLAN (Chinese) aircraft carrier Liaoning. All working in different ratings they are well represented on board the ship. The Chinese captions state that the women are treated equally as the men aboard.

PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

SinoSoldier

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