PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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Intrepid

Major
1) A strengthened undercarriage and landing gear that could take the pounding.
2) An arrestor hook and the underlying structure to handle the traps.
3) An exterior coating that was resistant to and protected the aircraft and its innards from the salt water environemnt.
4) Appropriate changes if necessary for refueling.
5) Adding, if necessary folding wings to minimize space.
6) An undercarriage geometry not to tip over on its nose, wing tip or tail even when the deck is tilting and there are winds with 40+ knots
7) Minimum turning radius without disturbing normally parked aircraft



E/A-16G Growler
You mean E/A-18G I think?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
6) An undercarriage geometry not to tip over on its nose, wing tip or tail even when the deck is tilting and there are winds with 40+ knots
7) Minimum turning radius without disturbing normally parked aircraft
These are understood in terms of navalizing the aircraft for carrier ops. If you do those other five things, you will have these.

You mean E/A-18G I think?
Thanks. Yes, definitely. The Growler is an F-18 variant. the "16" was a typo.
 

jacksprat

New Member
These are understood in terms of navalizing the aircraft for carrier ops. If you do those other five things, you will have these.

Thanks. Yes, definitely. The Growler is an F-18 variant. the "16" was a typo.

They also have to strengthen the wing roots, metal fatigue adds up quickly after several traps and slamming down on the hard deck and the very rapid deceleration.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
They also have to strengthen the wing roots, metal fatigue adds up quickly after several traps and slamming down on the hard deck and the very rapid deceleration.
Correct. Numbers 1 and 2 below, if analyzed and then designed properly would extend to and cover this to account for the stresses and fatigue.
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
I doubt if the J-10 airframe is suitable for a sea faring life. The pounding of arrested landings takes a toll on the best airframes engineered for sea duty. It takes a very sturdy and specially engineered airfame so an aircraft will have "Sea Legs".

There is the new J-10C coming out, which appears to be a strengthened design. Let's see if it will have a naval version.

J-10 essentially had a new airframe from A to B, however B is held up for seeming no reason as it get delayed and delayed into production. And now C is coming out with a strengthened airframe to carry large weapon loads. Perhaps the Navy wants to the J-10, and it's the reason why B isn't deployed and C will serve as common airframe for PLAAF and PLAN? who knows.

Anyways, if J-10C don't have a naval version. Then J-10 will never have a naval version, one major airframe spin is enough with next gen fighter already in testing stages.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
While it is certainly possible to navalise the J10, and there have been several examples of Air Force fighters being re-engineered for carrier ops in both east (Su33 and Mig29K) and west (F18). However, it is a formidable engineering challenge nonetheless, which will take many years.

Looking at all factors, there are many reasons which leads me to seriously doubt if there ever will be a naval J10.

1) Safety. For naval operations, twin engined planes offer a degree of redundancy and security that a single engines bird simply cannot match.

2) Growth potential. While the J10, and especially the J10B is a fine fighter, which should be a match against anything that isn't 5th gen, the fact remains that the J10B pretty much represents the ultimate evolutional potential of the basic J10 airframe. When most first class carrier operators are moving onto 5th gen designs, the J10B would simply be outclassed by the F35 and J31.

3) Timing. Had the PLAN carrier programme kicked off 10 years earlier than it did, a naval J10 would make perfect sense. But as things stand, its just too late for the J10 to get in on the carrier game. By the time a carrier J10 is operational, most other carrier operators will be fielding F35s rather than F18s, Harriers and Rafales, and even China's own J31 should be nearing IOC.

You should also consider the PLAN's own timetable. I mainly expect the next 5-10 years to be a time of learning, test and foundation laying for the PLAN carrier programme. During that time, the PLAN will mainly be concerned with playing catch up in terms of knowledge and experience in carrier operations and design rather than trying to build up a massive carrier force. I expect the first indigenous carriers to be built, maybe with two different classes of medium sized conventional carriers, but I do not expect the carrier fleet to get beyond 3 or 4 unless there is a major escalation of tensions and war looks imminent.

For a carrier fleet that size, it does not make sense to have two manned carrier fighter types as you are looking are barely more than a hundred carrier fighters total. Investing all the time and resources into navalising the J10 only to build 50 planes is just not worth it, and I don't think the PLAN will want to settle for two conventional types as its only carrier fighters for the next 20 years. It would be willing to have one conventional type if coupled with a second 5th gen type, but not two conventional jets and no 5th gens and three manned carrier fighter types could just be too much of an overlap.

I do not expect the PLAN to start a serious quantitative push on its carrier fleet until 10-15 years from now at the earliest, after it has had a chance to get a good grounding on carrier ops, carrier designs, and have moved onto nuclear super carriers. Incidentally, China should also overtake the US as the world's largest economy around then, so China would no longer be worried about getting sucked into an arms race with the US by then. That is plenty of time to get a medium 5th gen carrier fighter operational if they start now.

3) Workload. CAC is currently spread pretty thin with the number of major projects they have running, in 5-10 years time, many of those projects would have come to fruition or moved into the later testing stages, freeing up key personnel and assets to start the serious work of prototype production and flight testing for a new fighter.

4) Coporate strategy. As I have already touched upon above, it is a little too late for CAC to get in on the carrier game with a naval J10 proposal. Rather than waste time and resources trying to compete with the J15, which is likely to only have a limited production run, it would make far more sense for CAC to just concede the first round to SAC and start fresh with a design to compete for the carrier 5th gen contract, which is more realistic time wise, and have a far bigger probable production run.

It makes little sense for CAC to start from scratch now trying to compete with a design that is already nearly operational deployment, for a relatively small production run, especially when it is so busy now, and even more so when doing so would seriously undermine CAC's ability to seriously contest SAC for the far greater prize of a carrier 5th gen since SAC is already ahead there as well with the J31. CAC would be playing catch up already against the J31, it simply cannot afford to waste time with a carrier J10.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
From a design and engineering perspective, they could navalize the J-10 design.

It would require that they do a number of things and would not be the type of thing where they would retrofit older planes. They would have to be new builds.

They would have to do the engineering to allow for, and then build into the aircraft the following:

1) A strengthened undercarriage and landing gear that could take the pounding.
2) An arrestor hook and the underlying structure to handle the traps.
3) An exterior coating that was resistant to and protected the aircraft and its innards from the salt water environemnt.
4) Appropriate changes if necessary for refueling.
5) Adding, if necessary folding wings to minimize space.

If the J-10 met their functional requirements in terms of payload, function, etc., and was projected to do so for a couple of decades into the future, thenn it would be cheaper to do these things than to design and build another aircraft from the ground up. The question is simply whether this is something the PLAN feels would meet its requirements and needs.

If not, then there is no sense considering it. If so, then they will (if they haven't already) take a hard look at it.

Not every country ahs the luxury that the US does to have purpose built aircraft purely for naval air operations. Even the Chinese J-15 is a derivitive of their J-11s.

The US Navy E2-C/Ds, the US Navy A/F-18C/D/E/Fs, the US Navy EA-6B Prowlers and E/A-18G Growlers are all current aircraft that are purpose built for the US Navy for carriers (and used by the Marines there too). In the past, aircraft like the A-4, the F-8, the A-6, the F-14 etc were too. The A-7 is an aircraft that was designed by the Navy and then adopted by the Air Force.

But, in other navies, where they operate their own aircraft, like the French now, you have the Rafael serving both needs but a variant, the Rafael M for the Navy which is not just an upgrade. It is a seperate build. Like the PLAN, the Russians used a variant of their SU-27 and made it the SU-33. The new Mig-29s are a navalized version of their air force Migs.

Not many people operate their own aircraft off of carriers. MOst buy them from others. The UK will operate the JSF, which was built to serve the needs of all three branches and are different variants of the same aircraft.

Will the PLAN develop and ever use a navalized J-10? I do not know. I know they could if they wanted...but it would not be a simple matter of upgrading existing aircraft. They would be new builds like the J-15s are, like the SU-33s were, like the Rafael Ms are, like the Mig0-29Ks are, etc.


Jeff, you are so good, knowledgeable and creative (and wise). If PLA wanted to hire you as a consultant, would you accept it :) ?
 

Franklin

Captain
I don't understand this talk about a navalized J-10. China doesn't need a navalized J-10 the Flankers are just fine. The biggest problem is that the Liaoning doesn't go out to sea enough and there for the crew and pilots have very few chances to train. The Liaoning has been at sea for 22 days in june and now she is at port for 23 days.
 
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