PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
Exactly. See how stupid it is for you all to argue against such an obvious conclusion?

Patch was quite explicit about it being a theoretical possibility; he does not expect it to happen, and in fact expects the opposite.
No, I was refuting your own example. You even contradict yourself.

Assuming the US could successfully pull off major military reforms—a very large assumption, but let's go with it for now—then it will have achieved a dramatic capability boost with zero increase in resources. In other words, for free.
There are no free lunches.
How can US military reform come at no cost (for free)? Every change has a cost, if there were no costs to changes, then changes would occur all the time. The no free lunch principle applies to human societies and to physics.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, I was refuting your own example. You even contradict yourself.



How can US military reform come at no cost (for free)? Every change has a cost, if there were no costs to changes, then changes would occur all the time. The no free lunch principle applies to human and to physics.

No, you are misunderstanding what is physical vs intangible and also what is assumed vs actual. There is no contradiction.

The US cost is not material or financial, but rather in the political capital and institutional disruption of shaking up established bureaucracies. In reality, this naturally does not come for free. Which is why it's a (very large) assumption. On the other hand, the Chinese cost is both material and financial. And nobody advanced any theoreticals that Beijing would suddenly have an extra trillion in taxes to spend. That's why there is no assumption. You can assume one now if you like, but that's hardly the original discussion or disagreement.

In other words, there is an assumption of a free lunch for the US. It's not real, and again, Patch does not expect it to be real.
 

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, you are misunderstanding what is physical vs intangible and also what is assumed vs actual. There is no contradiction.

The US cost is not material or financial, but rather in the political capital and institutional disruption of shaking up established bureaucracies. In reality, this naturally does not come for free. Which is why it's a (very large) assumption. On the other hand, the Chinese cost is both material and financial. And nobody advanced any theoreticals that China would suddenly have an extra trillion dollars to spend. That's why there is no assumption. You can assume one now if you like, but that's hardly the original subject.

In other words, there is an assumption of a free lunch for the US. It's not real, and again, Patch does not expect it to be real.
So the US military can manage to pull off military reforms without material or financial costs (this is also impossible, you think the MIC will just allow themselves lose money lmao), but the Chinese military can't pull off military reforms without material and financial costs?

Do you see how absurd your logic is? Just because you can imagine the US military has more room for improvement doesn't mean the cost to fulfill your fantasy is free. Likewise, just because you can't imagine the Chinese military's potential improvement, doesn't mean it has to pay a heavy cost to improve.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
So the US military can manage to pull off military reforms without material or financial costs (this is also impossible, you think the MIC will just allow themselves lose money lmao), but the Chinese military can't pull off military reforms without material and financial costs?

Do you see how absurd your logic is? Just because you can imagine the US military has more room for improvement doesn't mean the cost to fulfill your fantasy is free. Likewise, just because you can't imagine the Chinese military potential improvement, doesn't mean it has to pay a heavy cost to improve.

No, and nowhere did I say anything about whether they can do such a thing in reality. For the third time, Patch did not think it would happen in reality. What he did say and what I am now trying to explain, however, is they would be in an advantageous position IF they did do such a thing.

Don't you see how absurd your position is? You are arguing against a hypothetical on the grounds that it can't happen. But everyone already agrees that it won't happen. For whatever reason, you just can't entertain a hypothetical for what it is.

Patch: Imagine the US improves.

You: But [reality].

Me: Yes, that's why he said "imagine."
 

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, and nowhere did I say anything about whether they can do such a thing in reality. For the third time, Patch did not think it would happen in reality. What he did say and what I am now trying to explain, however, is they would be in an advantageous position IF they did do such a thing.

Don't you see how absurd your position is? You are arguing against a hypothetical on the grounds that it can't happen. But everyone already agrees that it won't happen. For whatever reason, you just can't entertain a hypothetical for what it is.

Patch: Imagine the US improves.

You: But [reality].

Me: Yes, that's why he said "imagine."
Why would Patch waste our time by giving us hypothetical that are impossible? Surely Patch is talented enough to recognize the "assuming US military wins, therefore US military wins" argument is self-evident.

I don't have anything against what Patch said, I just think your response makes everything more confusing.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why would Patch waste our time by giving us hypothetical that are impossible? Surely Patch is talented enough to recognize the "assuming US military wins, therefore US military wins" argument is self-evident.

I don't have anything against what Patch said, I just think your response makes everything more confusing.

Probably because it's not impossible. Unlikely, sure. But there's nothing impossible about a major military shakeup; just look at the PLA reforms over the years.

And given the amount of pushback he received, it doesn't look self-evident at all.
 

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
Probably because it's not impossible. Unlikely, sure. But there's nothing impossible about major military reforms; just look at the PLA.

And given the amount of pushback he received, it doesn't look self-evident at all.
So why is it impossible that China can also commit major military reforms at no financial or material costs? Because your imagination limits you?
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
So why is it not impossible that China can also commit major military reforms at no financial or military costs? Because your imagination limits you?

No, it's perfectly possible. It's just not what the discussion was ever about, and therefore a non sequitur in this context. Frankly, this sounds like you are just trying to fish for some kind of cheap gotcha.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I disagree. While the PLA could certainly ramp up its own procurement tempo, there are hard limits on the total scope and scale of such an effort which are driven far more by internal resource and economic priorities than external factors.

While I can completely see the rationale behind this assessment, I would point out that it is precisely because the constraints are primarily driven by internal factors that China has significant scope for military ramp up if it deem that necessary by pulling levers to change its internal priorities.

China is currently only spending around 2% of its GDP on defence, so it has massive budgetary leeway to spend a hell of a lot more and not suffer any major drag on its broader economy.

In addition, China being the factory of the world, as well its past military industrial investment strategies, gives it far more ramp up potential and capabilities. So if China did decide to double its military expenditure tomorrow for example, it will get far more tangible benefits far sooner than say the US or UK doing the same, who do not have the necessary industrial and human capital assets or the control over private industry to quickly redeploy to translate that massive increased spending into a corresponding increase in production of military goods, so the extra military expenditure will just turn into inflation and profits into the pockets of the MIC, as illustrated by the Ukraine war logistics fiasco.

But even for China, any increases will need to be done gradually to avoid unnecessary waste and inflationary pressures, and with China’s general obsession with opsec, it may be years later that we get any concrete proof of past massive increases in military expenditure.

The biggest hard cap constraint the PLA will face in any large scale ramp up will by on the human training side to produce pilots, sailors and soldiers fast enough to crew all the new toys it can surge produce. But increasing use of unmanned platforms is significantly easing that problem.

The level of expenditure and overall allocation of effort towards PLA modernization and evolution have remained mostly constant over the past quarter decades, despite the significant changes in the balance of military power. Some degree of mirroring would likely occur, yes; but for all intents and purposes, the PLA has its own vision of its future force structure, and is likely to continue pursuing this vision regardless of actions we take on our end.

That feels like an uncharacteristically simplistic view of things.

The very steady level of expenditure China has made in its military modernisation over those decades is the product of a combination of a much more stable and friendly relationship with the U.S.; and the fact that its own military modernisation was going exactly according to its plans. Plans that are in turn dependent on catching up to a projected future point in the US military’s development power curve.

With the first foundational factor of good stable relations with the US out the window, it would be highly irrational for China to not course correct aggressively if the U.S. then take actions to fundamentally improve the projected future growth path of its own military power.

Further, many lines of effort present themselves which the PLA would be hard pressed to address in a meaningful capacity, but which still provide the US a notably improved position in some way. There is a lot of low hanging fruit that current senior leadership have utterly failed to harvest due to misaligned incentives and general incompetence, but even simple successes in this capacity would render our position far less tenuous than its current state. Significantly reducing overseas US commitment and operational tempo in low-yield theaters, recapitalization of our yards - even if just to maintain currently in service platforms, realigning fiscal priorities strongly in favor of Air Force and Naval procurement and modernization efforts, and more sensibly approaching procurement and sustainment endeavors such that we are no longer paying enormous fees to rent-seeking contractors to conduct support activities which are fundamentally ill-suited to civilian involvement, etc. etc. etc. would substantially reduce the barrier to fielding a capable and credible force to operate in the WestPac. Unfortunately, all of those things seem vastly beyond the capacity of our existing institutions to act upon.

Again, while the US can most certainly do a lot of things in its own power to improve its own position that China will be hard pressed to directly counter or interfere with, the very fact that the U.S. is taking concrete steps to address its own problems and improve its own capabilities will materially alter the PLA future threat assessment outcomes, which in turn will affect the PLA’s current investment and procurement decisions as it adjusts to try and address that projected future change.

It would be a mistake to assume that just because the PLA has not changed its own plans when the US has stumbled and faltered that it would also be so unresponsive if the US massively picked up the pace and got its own house back in order.
 

coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, it's perfectly possible. It's just not what the discussion was ever about, and therefore a non sequitur in this context. Frankly, this sounds like you are just trying to fish for some kind of cheap gotcha.
How is this a cheap gotcha. I literally responded to your own post, which you just contradicted. I'm not attacking Patch's post, I'm attacking your post.
If you or anyone else thinks that massively expanding the PLA budget does not come at a correspondingly massive cost, then I rest my case. There are no free lunches.
You can imagine free lunches for US military but no free lunches for Chinese military.
 
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