PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Can you point out 'other commitments' American has that they have to keep large number of F35 for and with higher priority than defeating China? I don't think F22 is that much important here. F35 is the key player for US. F35's production number will be around 130 -150 this year, what make you think they can only get 43 to 48 delivered per year? With Japanese's support, it is entirely possible that USA can concentrate 1000 F35 over the battle of Taiwan 6 years from now. Yes, US will use 90% of their force to make sure US will be the winner of this war. They would be stupid if they do otherwise.
They would be stupid to ever enter the conflict. 1,000 F-35 all need places to take off from, not to mention the problems that the platform itself faces. Chinese missiles can cover every base and aircraft carrier withing F-35 range and further. And China has made it clear that it's either a Chinese coventional victory, or a nuclear war. China can never back off from any conflict over the ROC and in reaction to America's recently obvious fears, has started to quickly amass its nuclear arsenal via DF-41 and DF-ZF hypersonic nukes to deter any American desperation-driven adventurism. And deter it will, as America only fights minnows it can bully; it did not face Russia in Georgia or Crimea, and did not face China as China builds islands in the SCS. Fighting a China that can likely win conventionally with massive geographical advantage but also has hypersonic nukes overflowing from its pockets is way out of the question.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
But why do think that China would engage the US the way the US would like to be engaged?

You talk about the PLAAF going against USN carrier-based F-35C.

I think China's plan is not the PLAAF but the PLARF. Why waste time and precious resources going for costly air-to-air combat when you can sink the carriers by using the PLARF?

What happen if the US declared that sinking her Aircraft Carrier by DF-26 would mean full blown nuclear war ?
 

9dashline

Captain
Registered Member
What happen if the US declared that sinking her Aircraft Carrier by DF-26 would mean full blown nuclear war ?
Declarations are cheap, its the follow up that counts.... end of day there is only hard power and power dynamic/disparity

This is why China needs 10000 nukes asap

Then China can declare a ban on Huawei will be full on thermonuclear war too
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
What happen if the US declared that sinking her Aircraft Carrier by DF-26 would mean full blown nuclear war ?
Then China should tell the US that interference over the reunification of the ROC is full blown nuclear war, then flash the thousands of new DF-ZF and DF-41 all aimed at every major and some minor US cities and see if they dare start it.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm not sure how can ROCAF hope to get 100 aircraft in the air. What we've seen in the past year is the current weakness of the Taiwanese air defense. At this point, ROCAF has shown that it will be completely at PLAAF's mercy in the future. ROCAF no longer attempts to intercept every PLAAF air group. Which has basically put their entire air defense structure at the mercy of PLAAF. Since Taiwan's air defense radar system is quite old, the PLAAF EW aircraft will pretty soon have a full understanding of all the main radar mode/signals used by the Taiwanese radar system and be able to deceive them. You can already see in some of the recent incursions where Taiwan thought 36 J-16s and 12 H-6s were coming at the same time in a really tight space in the southwest corner. These kind of things just don't seem to be plausible. All of these incursions have already caused ROCAF to fatigue to the point where they keep having fatal crashes. As PLAAF continues to introduce more J-16s/J-10Cs, you will see even larger/more frequent incursions. This type of activity really has a demoralizing effect on ROCAF. To the point where pilots are all either really old or really inexperienced. Why put your life at danger in a futile struggle when you can make a lot more money as commercial airline pilot? So ROCAF is right now an Air Force that is over fatigued but also have a lot of pilots without sufficient training. The intensity of PLAAF incursions have also taken a toll on ROCAF's ability to keep their aircraft functioning. Again, all of these will only get worse as PLAAF continues to improve. It's a pretty big change over 5 years ago when we still didn't know who was the better trained Air Force. Nowadays, it's clear PLAAF's elite units have much better training than ROCAF ones. Over time, the capability gap between the two will keep increasing.

One of the smart things PLAAF has done is normalizing this pattern where they continue to increase the tempo, size and complexity of their incursions. This shows a significant improvement in their operational capabilities and training. Again, things that we simply didn't see even 3 years ago. As they normalize these things, ROCAF will simply feel less urgency to be ready to fight back when China really does decide to do repeated incursion. Just imagine 5 years from now, PLAAF has figured out exactly how ROCAF reacts to every type of PLAAF incursions and all the air defense radar modes. They do a week of large incursions as they always have and ROCAF gets tired out and stops sending aircraft to incursion. Next you know, PLAAF comes into their usual location and do not turn back. Instead, they start manipulating Taiwanese air defense radar so Taiwan doesn't know what's coming. Then, the short range ballistic missiles start to come through and the radar are just not picking them up and J-16/Ds start launching ground attack missiles and ARM at the air bases, radar stations and SAM batteries. Knocks most of them offline. Now, the H-6s and other unsophisticated bomb truck come and drop a lot of guided and not guided bombs on all the major air fields around the country and destroy a good chunk of the ROCAF before they can take off. At the same time, most of the Taiwanese naval ships are activated, but are not equipped with modern SAMs or any air cover. They are going to be easy pickings for the flood of anti-ship missiles coming at them. At this point, the Taiwanese military will be very demoralized by what has already happened and ready to give up. I assume this is also when PLAN arrives with large amphibious warships over with attack helicopters and tanks. And for PLAAF transports to start air dropping troops in strategic locations.

ROCAF does their yearly demonstration of taking off from highways and such. But if they are already exhausted by a week of PLAAF incursion and lost out so much of their air defense infrastructure, why would we think they are capable of somehow rolling their aircraft to empty highways and get them off the ground. Keep in mind that PLAAF and ROCAF fighter jets have had their fair share of cat and mouse games. We are already at the point where PLAAF routinely locks on to ROCAF fighter jets. Do we think ROCAF is more likely to sacrifice pilots at this point or give up? PLAAF would've gotten to this Point with very little losses. The moment you are unable to put up defense when the other side comes with a large group of aircraft is the moment you lost the battle.

I agree with what you've said.

I was actually being very generous towards the capabilities of ROCAF, but I still think the ROCAF is still largely destroyed within 2 days.

I would also add that the majority of Taiwan's aircraft are really old and reaching the end of their service lives.
Plus Quick Reaction Alert is hard on the pilots, aircraft, engines and missile service lives.

5 or 10 years ago, USAF planners would've assumed that a good chunk of China's ballistic missiles and cruise missiles would have to be devoted to taking out Taiwanese air defense. But in the current day, PLAAF is capable of achieving that goal without utilizing most of that BM/CM arsenal. That changes things quite a bit. It will allow more of those missiles to be used to target USAF bases in the pacific that can potentially reach Taiwan and any air bases in Japan that might make sense.

Yes.

Let's say a PL-15 costs about $1M (like the AMRAAM) and has a conservative pK = 50% against a Taiwanese fighter.

Given a SRBM cost of $1M per missile (Pakistan export cost), it should be cheaper to use PL-15s to destroy Taiwanese fighter jets that to use SRBMs or cruise missiles against those fighters on the ground. That assumes you snipe at long range and don't lose any aircraft.

I've also noticed over the years that all the 300km range SRBMs (originally built with only Taiwan in mind) have been replaced with longer ranged versions.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I think in that case they would use rocket artillery. Stellar navigation guided artillery rockets like the SY-400.
I doubt that would be much more expensive than an air to air missile. Especially once you consider the possibility the aircraft might be shot down, needs a pilot, and needs fuel and maintenance.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
If we use my original timeline of 6 years from now, then USAF would have around 550 to 600 F-35As in service by then (about 300 now, 43 to 48 delivery by per year for the foreseeable future). Deploying even a quarter of that to Pacific theater would be hard to do since America has so much other commitment. The availability of F-22 is a lot lower (far and away the lowest in USAF and only about 110 is even in active/non national guard squadrons IIRC). Getting 1 squadron of F-22 is probably the most they can do. And as I described earlier, it would not be practical to expect more than 120 F-35B/Cs in theater. PLAAF would have a huge numbers advantage between J-20/J-35 in any conflict. On top of that, there should be a small number of H-20 and JH-20 available for combat by then.

Air strips are not created equally. Military ones are defended and have personnel available to repair runways. Air strips along Ryuku islands are not. More importantly, military air bases have people trained to maintain the aircraft and have shelters that at least offer some protection from missile strikes. You are not going to get that with non-military bases where even PGMs can probably put it out of use. USAF will also not risk its F-35As get destroyed on the ground.

If we compare this to Japan, most of the journey from mainland to Japanese waters will not have to face air defense radars or SAMs. One must ask how many air bases in Japan is even capable of hosting USAF F-35s and keeping them protected from LACMs. That would require hardened aircraft shelter and ground staff who are capable of maintaining F-35s. I would imagine that's a small number that H-20/JH-20 would have an easier time of taking out. Just as importantly, the flight route from Japan to Taiwan would be over international waters without air defense radar/missiles for protection. The tankers would be really facing the danger of PLAAF interception. It remains to be seen how well USAF/USN tankers can survive the J-20 threat in real combat. Needless to say, I think F-35A coming to the rescue of Taiwan to really be limited. So, the vast majority of effective F-35 protection hours would rest in the 100+ F-35B/Cs in the area. PLAAF would not have to strike down significant number of F-35s in such a scenario. They just need to not lose too many of their own advanced aircraft. They will likely also send a lot of J-6 drones and UAVs into the air space also. It won't just be fighter jet vs fighter jet. At a certain point, the air wing and their crew member would get worn out by repeated sorties.

Stating as a fact that US would have some more important commitments than putting as many planes into the fight as possible, against China seems very unrealistic to me. Sure, not ALL planes could possibly be sent to the war - but it's perfectly plausible the US would try to send as many as it can. What other commitments are there? To protect the mainland US? Sure, a few planes might be needed for that, to try to guard against sporadic, low volume bomber/ cruise missile incursions. But older planes can do that, F-35s aren't needed for that.
Other places around the world? Unless there's a war that US is involved in - I don't see the US choosing to commit many planes elsewhere. As we're seeing in Ukraine now, the US chose not to get itself involved, openly stating it'd not send any forces. Pull-out from Afghanistan can also be looked at in a similar light. The US trying to focus itself completely on China and being ready to send a maximum level force against China on a fairly short notice.
So, short of another large war - something on the scale of Russia going to war with NATO member countries in Europe - it seems perfectly plausible the US would have all the stealth fighters (and a better part of their fighter force overall as well) available against China.
Available here meaning available to be sent into theater when basing capacity and maintenance limits allow it.
I am not necessarily saying they'd be sending 500 or 1000 or any other specific figure - but to say unequivocally that the US could not send more than 300 F35/F22 seems like a blind faith dogmatic thing to say. Such underestimations of adversary were known to lead to defeats in wars, in historic terms.

F-35B would most likely be mostly used from ground bases, not from ships. In a sense, that's their primary role - to be used from fairly short runways, from austere and makeshift air bases.

Yes, not all bases are equal and some airports would support fewer sorties, of course. But a makeshift base doing 24 sorties per day is still better than no base. Even if some other base, with greater number of personnel, can manage 100 sorties. And yes, while a well manned and equipped base could repair a runways after an attack in a matter of hours, (Iraq did that in 1991) a less well equipped and manned base might need a day or two. But it'd still help quite a bit.
Expecting that the US would be limited to just these few bases that it operates today would be gross underestimation of the adversary which is just not logical for US to do. It'd amount to US choosing to fight with one hand tied behind their back, on their own.

F-35 is a weapon like any other. To not use because of fear of losing it makes little sense. So saying that F-35 would definitely not risk it getting destroyed on the ground makes no sense. There's just as equal possibility that the US will very much use it from bases 1000 or 1500 km away, bases without hardened shelters and so on.
Having satellites and BM/CMs doesn't equal precise hits on planes on the ground. There's gonna be a lot of cat and mouse game, a lot of hiding and reshuffling, and a lot of misses if any side (US or china) tries to actually go for individual planes parked on the ground using very long range stand off attacks.

The route US/JP planes would use would be over or the east of Ryukyu islands. So there'd indeed be some air defense protection. Both from ground SAMs and pretty numerous naval assets, east of those islands.

None of my writeups are saying "China can't do this or that", they're here to try to present something I believe is a more objective possibility - where both sides would face considerable issues. To expect that the US would just sit tight and make a token effort doesn't seem realistic - when it'd be choosing not to use so many options available to it. If US really concluded it can't send more than a few hundred planes at once against china - then the US would not choose to participate in the war at all. It just wouldn't make sense.

Japan getting involved in such a war is a given, really.
And with many bases being literally shared by US and JPN forces, with incursions of Chinese assets into JPN territory and JPN SAMs shooting at Chinese planes, and JPNs SAM assets being attacked by China - it's basically inevitable that Japan would very quickly go all in against China, since the US be there, also all-in, as well.
If for any reason Japan DOESN'T want to get involved - the US would choose not to participate in the war either. Japan is simply that crucial.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Stating as a fact that US would have some more important commitments than putting as many planes into the fight as possible, against China seems very unrealistic to me. Sure, not ALL planes could possibly be sent to the war - but it's perfectly plausible the US would try to send as many as it can. What other commitments are there? To protect the mainland US? Sure, a few planes might be needed for that, to try to guard against sporadic, low volume bomber/ cruise missile incursions. But older planes can do that, F-35s aren't needed for that.
Other places around the world? Unless there's a war that US is involved in - I don't see the US choosing to commit many planes elsewhere. As we're seeing in Ukraine now, the US chose not to get itself involved, openly stating it'd not send any forces. Pull-out from Afghanistan can also be looked at in a similar light. The US trying to focus itself completely on China and being ready to send a maximum level force against China on a fairly short notice.
So, short of another large war - something on the scale of Russia going to war with NATO member countries in Europe - it seems perfectly plausible the US would have all the stealth fighters (and a better part of their fighter force overall as well) available against China.
Available here meaning available to be sent into theater when basing capacity and maintenance limits allow it.
I am not necessarily saying they'd be sending 500 or 1000 or any other specific figure - but to say unequivocally that the US could not send more than 300 F35/F22 seems like a blind faith dogmatic thing to say. Such underestimations of adversary were known to lead to defeats in wars, in historic terms.

F-35B would most likely be mostly used from ground bases, not from ships. In a sense, that's their primary role - to be used from fairly short runways, from austere and makeshift air bases.

Yes, not all bases are equal and some airports would support fewer sorties, of course. But a makeshift base doing 24 sorties per day is still better than no base. Even if some other base, with greater number of personnel, can manage 100 sorties. And yes, while a well manned and equipped base could repair a runways after an attack in a matter of hours, (Iraq did that in 1991) a less well equipped and manned base might need a day or two. But it'd still help quite a bit.
Expecting that the US would be limited to just these few bases that it operates today would be gross underestimation of the adversary which is just not logical for US to do. It'd amount to US choosing to fight with one hand tied behind their back, on their own.

F-35 is a weapon like any other. To not use because of fear of losing it makes little sense. So saying that F-35 would definitely not risk it getting destroyed on the ground makes no sense. There's just as equal possibility that the US will very much use it from bases 1000 or 1500 km away, bases without hardened shelters and so on.
Having satellites and BM/CMs doesn't equal precise hits on planes on the ground. There's gonna be a lot of cat and mouse game, a lot of hiding and reshuffling, and a lot of misses if any side (US or china) tries to actually go for individual planes parked on the ground using very long range stand off attacks.

The route US/JP planes would use would be over or the east of Ryukyu islands. So there'd indeed be some air defense protection. Both from ground SAMs and pretty numerous naval assets, east of those islands.

None of my writeups are saying "China can't do this or that", they're here to try to present something I believe is a more objective possibility - where both sides would face considerable issues. To expect that the US would just sit tight and make a token effort doesn't seem realistic - when it'd be choosing not to use so many options available to it. If US really concluded it can't send more than a few hundred planes at once against china - then the US would not choose to participate in the war at all. It just wouldn't make sense.

Japan getting involved in such a war is a given, really.
And with many bases being literally shared by US and JPN forces, with incursions of Chinese assets into JPN territory and JPN SAMs shooting at Chinese planes, and JPNs SAM assets being attacked by China - it's basically inevitable that Japan would very quickly go all in against China, since the US be there, also all-in, as well.
If for any reason Japan DOESN'T want to get involved - the US would choose not to participate in the war either. Japan is simply that crucial.

The entire US strategy for a war with China hinges on this being a *limited* war, which doesn't spillover into the wider region and then a nuclear war. Personally I think this is a fantasy.

Since a 2028 timeframe has been mooted, one of the key differences is the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal.
Current estimates are 300-400 nukes. The Pentagon has updated estimates of 700 by 2027 and 1000 by 2030.

During the Cold War, the doctrines of both the USA and USSR emphasised the use of nukes/chemicals if a conventional war was going badly.
So it is reasonable to suggest that China's nuclear doctrine will change has it approaches nuclear parity (and MAD) with the US.

As a hypothetical, suppose a small tactical nuke was detonated over Hiroshima Memorial Park with zero to minimal casualties.
What would be the Japanese or American reaction?

If there was a China-Taiwan war, the US and Japan would have to be crazy to start a nuclear war with China.
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Stating as a fact that US would have some more important commitments than putting as many planes into the fight as possible, against China seems very unrealistic to me. Sure, not ALL planes could possibly be sent to the war - but it's perfectly plausible the US would try to send as many as it can. What other commitments are there? To protect the mainland US? Sure, a few planes might be needed for that, to try to guard against sporadic, low volume bomber/ cruise missile incursions. But older planes can do that, F-35s aren't needed for that.
Other places around the world? Unless there's a war that US is involved in - I don't see the US choosing to commit many planes elsewhere. As we're seeing in Ukraine now, the US chose not to get itself involved, openly stating it'd not send any forces. Pull-out from Afghanistan can also be looked at in a similar light. The US trying to focus itself completely on China and being ready to send a maximum level force against China on a fairly short notice.
So, short of another large war - something on the scale of Russia going to war with NATO member countries in Europe - it seems perfectly plausible the US would have all the stealth fighters (and a better part of their fighter force overall as well) available against China.
Available here meaning available to be sent into theater when basing capacity and maintenance limits allow it.
I am not necessarily saying they'd be sending 500 or 1000 or any other specific figure - but to say unequivocally that the US could not send more than 300 F35/F22 seems like a blind faith dogmatic thing to say. Such underestimations of adversary were known to lead to defeats in wars, in historic terms.

F-35B would most likely be mostly used from ground bases, not from ships. In a sense, that's their primary role - to be used from fairly short runways, from austere and makeshift air bases.

Yes, not all bases are equal and some airports would support fewer sorties, of course. But a makeshift base doing 24 sorties per day is still better than no base. Even if some other base, with greater number of personnel, can manage 100 sorties. And yes, while a well manned and equipped base could repair a runways after an attack in a matter of hours, (Iraq did that in 1991) a less well equipped and manned base might need a day or two. But it'd still help quite a bit.
Expecting that the US would be limited to just these few bases that it operates today would be gross underestimation of the adversary which is just not logical for US to do. It'd amount to US choosing to fight with one hand tied behind their back, on their own.

F-35 is a weapon like any other. To not use because of fear of losing it makes little sense. So saying that F-35 would definitely not risk it getting destroyed on the ground makes no sense. There's just as equal possibility that the US will very much use it from bases 1000 or 1500 km away, bases without hardened shelters and so on.
Having satellites and BM/CMs doesn't equal precise hits on planes on the ground. There's gonna be a lot of cat and mouse game, a lot of hiding and reshuffling, and a lot of misses if any side (US or china) tries to actually go for individual planes parked on the ground using very long range stand off attacks.

The route US/JP planes would use would be over or the east of Ryukyu islands. So there'd indeed be some air defense protection. Both from ground SAMs and pretty numerous naval assets, east of those islands.

None of my writeups are saying "China can't do this or that", they're here to try to present something I believe is a more objective possibility - where both sides would face considerable issues. To expect that the US would just sit tight and make a token effort doesn't seem realistic - when it'd be choosing not to use so many options available to it. If US really concluded it can't send more than a few hundred planes at once against china - then the US would not choose to participate in the war at all. It just wouldn't make sense.

Japan getting involved in such a war is a given, really.
And with many bases being literally shared by US and JPN forces, with incursions of Chinese assets into JPN territory and JPN SAMs shooting at Chinese planes, and JPNs SAM assets being attacked by China - it's basically inevitable that Japan would very quickly go all in against China, since the US be there, also all-in, as well.
If for any reason Japan DOESN'T want to get involved - the US would choose not to participate in the war either. Japan is simply that crucial.
I just don't see many feasible platforms that can support the number of aircrafts you dream of...
 

blindsight

Junior Member
Registered Member
The entire US strategy for a war with China hinges on this being a *limited* war, which doesn't spillover into the wider region and then a nuclear war. Personally I think this is a fantasy.

Since a 2028 timeframe has been mooted, one of the key differences is the size of the Chinese nuclear arsenal.
Current estimates are 300-400 nukes. The Pentagon has updated estimates of 700 by 2027 and 1000 by 2030.

During the Cold War, the doctrines of both the USA and USSR emphasised the use of nukes/chemicals if a conventional war was going badly.
So it is reasonable to suggest that China's nuclear doctrine will change has it approaches nuclear parity (and MAD) with the US.

As a hypothetical, suppose a small tactical nuke was detonated over Hiroshima Memorial Park with zero to minimal casualties.
What would be the Japanese or American reaction?

If there was a China-Taiwan war, the US and Japan would have to be crazy to start a nuclear war with China.
I agree with you, except that I'd call it a civil war of China.
 
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