PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

Neurosmith

New Member
Registered Member
Im not sure the many new subs are supposed to operate land attack on US, China faces much the same issues as US does with China's mainland when it comes to attacking the US' mainland. Namely how can you ensure the salvos are profitable/destroy more than it costs to bring them there?

US doesn't have much air defenses deployed at this moment at home, but assuming they won't have any in wartime is just doing the same mistake as someone assuming China wouldn't surge systems to the Myanmar border during wartime either.

Instead I think China often looks to historical ideas for their own strategies, because why not reuse proven ideas that work? The subs could be meant to conduct an anti surface campaign behind US' main lines, in the style of the ww2 USN submarine campaign against the IJN.
The subs would not need to achieve a "profitable" outcome in terms of targets destroyed to force the opponent to drastically change the deployments of their assets and the overall calculus of their strategy. Like others have mentioned, the mere knowledge of the subs' ability to strike the opposing nation's home territory would necessitate the redeployment of some of that nation's forces from the frontline back to the home front.

This is not to say that the development of the 09IIIB is meant to bring a potential war to the US homeland, but if such capability is provided but these platforms, this is IMHO how such a notional strike would be carried out.

Another example: if Taiwan's new SSK managed to hit a military airfield on the mainland, that too would necessitate the redeployment of some of the PLAN's assets that would otherwise be engaged on the Taiwanese front.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Im not sure the many new subs are supposed to operate land attack on US, China faces much the same issues as US does with China's mainland when it comes to attacking the US' mainland. Namely how can you ensure the salvos are profitable/destroy more than it costs to bring them there?
US did have an incredible defensive buildup before, they concluded it just doesn't live up to spending. It had promise during 1950s(though the one time it was preparing to work everyone was...not enthusiastic). But against BMs it was seen as a losing game anyways.

Since then, CONUS is always potentially vulnerable to the last inch, and frankly speaking NORAD/ang defense force is rather mediocre. US just don't rely on defence, rather on sheer deterrence and pressure everywhere.
The problem for China at this moment is that it essentially doesn't have means to deliver this pressure. The only available way is SSNs with TT launched LACMs, which, mildly, isn't much.

But rebuilding 1960s NORAD again for a conventional threat can't be done on a whim, especially not in current financial situation.

Thus, forcing US to spend money for home defense in itself will be a win. It's also a whole continent to defend, you don't solve it just by "moving sams to Myanmar border".
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Yeah there's defintely an opportunity cost to make the enemy waste a lot of resources on continental defense, hence I expect China to make Doolittle raid style attacks (using subs, J-XD deep penetration with 5th gen escort, even H-6s flying in the Alaska path or more esoteric methods like container launched missiles on cargo ships) with a similar intent.

But at the same time, the primary function of subs might be better served attacking US shipping and resupply ships.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Yeah there's defintely an opportunity cost to make the enemy waste a lot of resources on continental defense, hence I expect China to make Doolittle raid style attacks (using subs, J-XD deep penetration with 5th gen escort, even H-6s flying in the Alaska path or more esoteric methods like container launched missiles on cargo ships) with a similar intent.

But at the same time, the primary function of subs might be better served attacking US shipping and resupply ships.

Not directed at you, but I think generally people are suffering from a server case of not adjusting historical case studies to the reality of this case.

When people talk and think of conventional strikes against CONUS, they seem to think it needs to be like desert storm or it’s not going to achieve anything.

However, the reality is that US domestic industrial capacity is extremely limited almost across the board, and it has comically poor regenerative capacity to recover and a massive question mark on whether it can even regenerate lost capacity during times of war when supply chains from China are severed at source.

Just look at the Baltimore bridge incident and how long it’s taken them to just clear the debris. As well as much lampooned scenes where hastily hung American flags have blown away to reveal Chinese logos on cranes at ports.

Even a handful of missiles can cause show stopping critical damage to core American military industrial capabilities. Just think how long it might take for LockMart to rebuild from any attack on their main manufacturing centre. Or how long it will take for the navy to repair their few shipyards capable of warship production.

Just because America was able to do a massive industrial spin up in WWII is zero indication they can do the same, or even anything approximating it now. Just like the glories of past Chinese dynasties counted for shit for the Qing after decades of misrule and neglect of their military and industrial fundamentals.

China doesn’t need any fancy next gen or theoretical weapons to make these limited in scale but massive in impact strikes against CONUS targets.

It can easily do its own version of the Oreshnik attack by refitting existing ICBMs. It also has demonstrated FOBS capabilities years ago.

In many ways, it might be massively beneficial for China to make such a move early in any clash against the U.S. to both demonstrate its own resolve, as well as to underline the weaknesses of existing U.S. BMD capabilities as a safeguard against US temptations for nuclear brinksmanship later once they loose conventionally.

At the very worst case, it can smuggle its shipping container missile launchers onto 3rd party freighters and hit CONUS targets while also basically creating an impossible logistical challenge for the U.S. to start screening all incoming freighters for missiles, thereby also massively disrupting its logistics.

The point is that people are setting way too high a bar for China. When in reality it can cause a colossal amount of damage with existing or easily attainable capacity. And with how weak American rebuild capabilities have demonstrably been in real life, any such damage done could take far longer than people expect for the US to recover from.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
US did have an incredible defensive buildup before, they concluded it just doesn't live up to spending. It had promise during 1950s(though the one time it was preparing to work everyone was...not enthusiastic). But against BMs it was seen as a losing game anyways.

Since then, CONUS is always potentially vulnerable to the last inch, and frankly speaking NORAD/ang defense force is rather mediocre. US just don't rely on defence, rather on sheer deterrence and pressure everywhere.
The problem for China at this moment is that it essentially doesn't have means to deliver this pressure. The only available way is SSNs with TT launched LACMs, which, mildly, isn't much.

But rebuilding 1960s NORAD again for a conventional threat can't be done on a whim, especially not in current financial situation.

Thus, forcing US to spend money for home defense in itself will be a win. It's also a whole continent to defend, you don't solve it just by "moving sams to Myanmar border".

Prior to Patchwork's departure, he mentioned that the PLAN were working on a submarine launched ballistic/hypersonic missile with a range of 3000km. That implies a terminal speed of Mach 20 which can really only be intercepted by GBI.

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Consider the implications of Chinese submarines operating in the Eastern Pacific or the Atlantic.

Almost every location in the continental USA is at risk, and could be targeted in retaliation for US strikes on mainland China.
 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Prior to Patchwork's departure, he mentioned that the PLAN were working on a submarine launched ballistic/hypersonic missile with a range of 3000km. That implies a terminal speed of Mach 20 which can really only be intercepted by GBI.

---

Consider the implications of Chinese submarines operating in the Eastern Pacific or the Atlantic.

Almost every location in the continental USA is at risk, and could be targeted in retaliation for US strikes on mainland China.
When, then.
When 095s enter service, the picture will slowly start changing. Same can be said about H-20. But even then, it's more of a...bite/burst(deterrence). Effector bandwidth will be low, risks involved(for valuable assets) - extreme.

Right now, this capability is either 093b (which can deliver some strike, but realistically it's around I-400 threat level), special ops (limited by definition), or full-on ICBM.
There's some conditional capability(H-6 can technically do the job with stand-off weapons when flying from Russia, and we saw them flying from Russian arctic bases this year), but until H-20 is a thing, I doubt CONUS is worth even considering.

Also, the way I see it - if there's any intention to deliver actual effects onto CONUS(global/fobs aside), Russia as close ally seems to be the only serious path(path full of extreme benefits and risks).
Basic(current) geography is just not fair.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
When, then.
When 095s enter service, the picture will slowly start changing. Same can be said about H-20. But even then, it's more of a...bite/burst(deterrence). Effector bandwidth will be low, risks involved(for valuable assets) - extreme.

Right now, this capability is either 093b (which can deliver some strike, but realistically it's around I-400 threat level), special ops (limited by definition), or full-on ICBM.
There's some conditional capability(H-6 can technically do the job with stand-off weapons when flying from Russia, and we saw them flying from Russian arctic bases this year), but until H-20 is a thing, I doubt CONUS is worth even considering.

Also, the way I see it - if there's any intention to deliver actual effects onto CONUS(global/fobs aside), Russia as close ally seems to be the only serious path(path full of extreme benefits and risks).
Basic(current) geography is just not fair.

Let's look at the likely situation in 2030.

The 1IC should be pretty secure, so submarines and ships should be able to easily pass through the Bashi Straits into the Pacific.
And we're looking at 15+ additional submarines in service, with Type-095 noise levels potentially at ocean background levels.

So the risks should be manageable, because the area of operations is huge and the missiles have a 3000km range.

Now imagine 12 missiles being launched at an aircraft carrier docked in port.

---

But yes, at the moment, the options to reach CONUS are very limited
 

bsdnf

New Member
Registered Member
In my opinion, the PLA has no intention of conducting a conventional continental strike, because it is very expensive and impractical. The PLA's intention is very clear: using conventional forces to destroy key nodes of the 2IC such as Guam can greatly reduce the US military's power projection capabilities, physical distance will do the rest. Things like SSN-launched cruise missiles, bomber strikes, and container missile launchers are all Red Dawn-style fantasies. PLA will either not send any ammunition to the North American, or directly send nuclear weapons
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
In my opinion, the PLA has no intention of conducting a conventional continental strike, because it is very expensive and impractical. The PLA's intention is very clear: using conventional forces to destroy key nodes of the 2IC such as Guam can greatly reduce the US military's power projection capabilities, physical distance will do the rest. Things like SSN-launched cruise missiles, bomber strikes, and container missile launchers are all Red Dawn-style fantasies. PLA will either not send any ammunition to the North American, or directly send nuclear weapons
Theyll send a little bit just to waste US energy on placing defenses there. It's easy to achieve with current capabilities, but at the same time it's impossible to conduct any volume action, just as US cannot conduct reliable volume action on China's continental areas either. The reason it's such a profitable tradeoff for China to send a few raids and it isn't for US is that China always has massive defenses in the mainland anyways, whereas US usually doesn't have much at home, so they'll need to reposition assets while China doesn't.

The obsession with building anti-continental US weapons is entirely wrong imho. It makes no sense not to focus on overwhelming close conquests first and then gradually consolidating them to move forward. US didn't fight ww2 by immediately trying to destroy Japan home islands or fire weapons at Manchuria. Germany didn't begin Barbarossa by raiding Siberia.

Special raids and black sea style minor area denials have their place, but it would be madness if China's heavy focus is on making super long ranged platforms solely so they can bomb continental US heavily on day 1, when there is a whole frontline that will require massive resources to hold in Asia.
 

drowingfish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Theyll send a little bit just to waste US energy on placing defenses there. It's easy to achieve with current capabilities, but at the same time it's impossible to conduct any volume action, just as US cannot conduct reliable volume action on China's continental areas either. The reason it's such a profitable tradeoff for China to send a few raids and it isn't for US is that China always has massive defenses in the mainland anyways, whereas US usually doesn't have much at home, so they'll need to reposition assets while China doesn't.

The obsession with building anti-continental US weapons is entirely wrong imho. It makes no sense not to focus on overwhelming close conquests first and then gradually consolidating them to move forward. US didn't fight ww2 by immediately trying to destroy Japan home islands or fire weapons at Manchuria. Germany didn't begin Barbarossa by raiding Siberia.

Special raids and black sea style minor area denials have their place, but it would be madness if China's heavy focus is on making super long ranged platforms solely so they can bomb continental US heavily on day 1, when there is a whole frontline that will require massive resources to hold in Asia.
For China the better option would be to hit US bases on the Eurasian continent, doing so strategically to make them vulnerable to local actors. one such example would be in Iraq.
 
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