PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

Luke Warmwar

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The third point becomes operationally effective for China by next year, which is also why the US is trying to accelerate a military conflict, but this also isn't taking into consideration the rest of the Axis of Resistance at play either (especially Russia, Iran and North Korea).
I’m in two minds over whether the US wants military conflict. I think there’s a school of thought that says it should, but there’s also a school of thought that believes that the US can strangle China’s economy sufficiently until the US retools its production and demographics begin playing a role. Based on the US’ stance recently, I think they’re content to build up and disrupt China economically.

The axis is a different question. The DPRK may come into play if ROK does, and arguably it would make sense for China to put Korea back into play, as it gives the PLA something to do. But even if they take the entire peninsula, it still doesn’t solve the fundamental question of access to resources.

China could try to sort access to fuel via land corridors with Russia and Iran. To date those projects seem to be going slowly. The Russian pipeline is bogged down in negotiations. The corridor to Iran goes through Pakistan, and that country seems to be half-run by the CIA, with the other half not run at all.

Even if the basic energy concerns were sorted, issues of for instance iron ore shipments arise, not to mention the export-led economy. An overland belt and road project makes sense to address those issues, but it’s not quite there yet. Not to mention that overland is less efficient than sea transport, so even if China is able to sort out and protect an overland transportation network, it’s less competitive than its western-bloc sea peers.

That’s not to say these things can’t be done. Look at North Korea: it has successfully pursued autarky, made the (very sound) investment in artillery, and now is on the cusp of a nuclear triad. On the other hand, compared to China it’s small fry. For the US, the cost of handling the DPRK isn’t worth the benefit. Whereas with China, the prize is the world.
 

august1

New Member
I’m in two minds over whether the US wants military conflict. I think there’s a school of thought that says it should, but there’s also a school of thought that believes that the US can strangle China’s economy sufficiently until the US retools its production and demographics begin playing a role. Based on the US’ stance recently, I think they’re content to build up and disrupt China economically.
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Yeah they're gonna be waiting for a while...
 

Luke Warmwar

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View attachment 131591

Yeah they're gonna be waiting for a while...
We could have a full thread for demographic predictions (in fact, I think there is one). Suffice it to say that there’s a popular strain of thought in the US that their demographic prospects (in part thanks to migration) are better than China’s, which in turn makes them more likely to take a patient approach.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is where things get a bit less certain.

The US can rely on submarines for naval dominance, and China doesn’t yet have a full response.

In a shooting war, the US can degrade China’s construction capacity via strikes from submarines and local bases, whereas China will struggle to strike the US mainland conventionally.

That means US response to a blockade and degradation of Taiwan can be to blockade and degrade mainland China.

The Chinese response has to be to force the US out of the second island chain, including their bases and submarines.

The questions roughly are:
  1. Does China have the capacity to blockade/degrade Taiwan? (Yes)
  2. Does the US have the capacity to blockade/degrade China using its submarines and local bases? (Yes)
  3. Does China have the capacity to destroy the US submarines and local bases? (Probably not yet)

Maybe other experts in the field can correct me if I am wrong.

I have a problem with Submarines being magic weapons in the Navy. I don't think they are. I think surface ships are much more powerful and useful than submarines.

First of all, Submarines are extremely vulnerable to submarine detection with aircraft based sunoboys, magnetic detection techniques and also active sonar techniques from naval ships. Once subs are detected, they are essentially dead, they have no defense. A surface ship on the other hand can fight back with its own missiles against other ships or air defense. Submarines have no air defense.

2nd, Submarine have very poor ISR and co-ordination ability. You can only listen to others but not communicate back without exposing yourself. Submarine also have limited situational awareness. Passive sonar is pretty much the only sensor they have and its not that good compared to a Radar.

3rd, 1st island Chain is a choke point which is likely rigged with numerous sub detecting sensors. So, any sub entering the choke point should be detected by the PLA.

I doubt a submarine can get even 100 miles from a PLA fleet which is actively searching for submarines. Submarines are good for sinking civillian ships. But I doubt they are any good against a strong peer opponent with air superiority. With air superiority, you can pretty much run constant grid search for submarines and destroy them with ease.

I think there is a reason PLA hasn't really focused on submarines that much. Its because of their limited utility in the choke point of 1st island chain. In wide open ocean they could be a bigger threat but not within 1st island chain.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
We could have a full thread for demographic predictions (in fact, I think there is one). Suffice it to say that there’s a popular strain of thought in the US that their demographic prospects (in part thanks to migration) are better than China’s, which in turn makes them more likely to take a patient approach.
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Luke Warmwar

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Maybe other experts in the field can correct me if I am wrong.

[…]

I think there is a reason PLA hasn't really focused on submarines that much. It’s because of their limited utility in the choke point of 1st island chain. In wide open ocean they could be a bigger threat but not within 1st island chain.
Agreed that the key conflict will be outside the first island chain. That’s where US strikes will be launched from, and where blockades will be implemented.

China’s focus on the first island chain makes sense if it thinks the US won’t engage, or thinks it can outlast any US blockade. If the US is going to seriously engage though, then the question of the second island chain and beyond becomes relevant.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
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Agreed that the key conflict will be outside the first island chain. That’s where US strikes will be launched from, and where blockades will be implemented.

China’s focus on the first island chain makes sense if it thinks the US won’t engage, or thinks it can outlast any US blockade. If the US is going to seriously engage though, then the question of the second island chain and beyond becomes relevant.

PLA can defeat any naval blockade by simply importing raw materials via land. Most raw materials that China needs are actually used for exports. For China's internal use China pretty much has mines, reserves for every resource. Moreover, China is attached to Eurasia via land, and also has strong relations with Russia and Central Asia. Pretty much every mineral and energy minerals you need, Russia and Central Asia has it. China can also get all the raw materials from around the world via land links with Russia, Pakistan, Myanmar, Thailand and other countries. No one can police entire Eurasia to prevent China from getting the needed raw materials. These countries can import from places like Africa, Latin America and resupply it to China.

If a true war with US starts, China will stop exporting everything to focus entirely on domestic consumption and military production. and It can leverage all the land based sources. Once it can produce enough ships, missiles and planes. It will break through any blockade with force.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
The US can rely on submarines for naval dominance, and China doesn’t yet have a full response.
All the PLAN surface combatants have variable depth sonar and towed sonar array. China is also working on improving its existing anti-submarine helicopters. China also has a substantial anti-submarine aircraft force.

In a shooting war, the US can degrade China’s construction capacity via strikes from submarines and local bases, whereas China will struggle to strike the US mainland conventionally.
China can just demolish all US military bases in the region with missile barrages in retaliation. Plus wipe out opposing naval surface ships.

That means US response to a blockade and degradation of Taiwan can be to blockade and degrade mainland China.
The Chinese response has to be to force the US out of the second island chain, including their bases and submarines.

The questions roughly are:
  1. Does China have the capacity to blockade/degrade Taiwan? (Yes)
  2. Does the US have the capacity to blockade/degrade China using its submarines and local bases? (Yes)
  3. Does China have the capacity to destroy the US submarines and local bases? (Probably not yet)
The US nuclear submarines won't be particularly survivable in the first island chain. And China has 45 diesel subs. Which are way more suitable for fighting close to the coastline.

China could try to sort access to fuel via land corridors with Russia and Iran. To date those projects seem to be going slowly. The Russian pipeline is bogged down in negotiations. The corridor to Iran goes through Pakistan, and that country seems to be half-run by the CIA, with the other half not run at all.
China already has an oil pipeline (ESPO) and a gas pipeline (Power of Siberia) from Russia. And they have gas pipelines from Turkmenistan. If you follow Chinese projects, they typically only start a project after the preceding one is done with. So you can likely expect the Power of Siberia 2 project to be approved after Power of Siberia and the pipeline carrying gas from Sakhalin come fully online.
I also expect new oil pipelines to be built carrying oil from the Vankor oil field.

Even if the basic energy concerns were sorted, issues of for instance iron ore shipments arise, not to mention the export-led economy.
Russia, Mongolia, and North Korea have iron ore.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
This is where things get a bit less certain.

The US can rely on submarines for naval dominance, and China doesn’t yet have a full response.

That’s a massively questionable and situational statement. While the PLAN lacks the ability to effectively hunt for USN SSNs and SSBNs out in the deep pacific, but in and around China’s coast and even out to the first island chain, that’s an entirely different matter.

China’s surface fleets have formidable ASW capabilities that are even more comprehensive than the USN’s own surface fleet owning to fleet wide TAS and WDS as well as its large FFG fleet and even its 056A corvette fleet that also have comprehensive ASW capabilities. It also has a large and growing fixed and rotary wing ASW and MPA fleet. Not to mention it’s massive SSK fleet.

SSNs are also significantly handicapped by the limited range and speed of their primary weapon the torpedo. An SSN will meet to get within 50km of its target to attack. Significantly closer if it wants any realistic chance of scoring a hit against enemy warships. That would put them well within range of PLAN Yu7 ASROCs, which can splash down on the point of torpedo launch within minutes of launch. A surface fleet on high alert will also have ASW helicopters airborne 24/7, so those will be close behind.

This means that realistically speaking, SSNs attacking a typical PLAN surface fleet is going to have a high chance of making it a suicide attack, since PLAN retaliation will be swift and likely comprehensive and persistent.

In a shooting war, the US can degrade China’s construction capacity via strikes from submarines and local bases, whereas China will struggle to strike the US mainland conventionally.

In a shooting war, US local bases will be gone in the opening hours since China has orders of magnitude more powerful strike capabilities.

Submarines have limited missile numbers and all those missiles are subsonic, making them easy to detect and intercept by the PLA’s airborne assets.

The only things that might have a reasonable chance of punching through PLA air defences are the USN’s SSGNs via saturation attack. But there are few and fewer of those boats with each passing year. Moreover submarines will need to return to port for weapons restock. With regional bases gone, they will have to go back to Pearl to be reasonably safe from being killed at port during replenishment. It’s certainly a viable pot shot strategy, but it’s not realistically going to have high chances of success.

That means US response to a blockade and degradation of Taiwan can be to blockade and degrade mainland China.

China can do without seaborne trade altogether under war time. Russia alone would be able to provide the bulk of the raw materials China’s factories would need. China is self sufficient in food, so no need for exports of food at all. That’s not even accounting for the rest of Asia, the ME and even Europe, that can all trade with China via land routes.

OTOH, how well would America do without all manufactured goods and components from China? How will European consumers manage? What is America going to do if European flagged ships openly ignores their self imposed blockade of China? Sink their allies’ ships?

Economic reality can hit just as hard as military.

The Chinese response has to be to force the US out of the second island chain, including their bases and submarines.

The questions roughly are:
  1. Does China have the capacity to blockade/degrade Taiwan? (Yes)
  2. Does the US have the capacity to blockade/degrade China using its submarines and local bases? (Yes)
  3. Does China have the capacity to destroy the US submarines and local bases? (Probably not yet)

It’s kinda funny that the most useful contribution the Japanese can make during such a war is to stay unimpeachably neutral.

Because if they jump in on America’s side, China will take the best first island chain islands from them and basically make that island chain as its new fortress-shield to comprehensively protect the mainland coast from attack.
 

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think there is a reason PLA hasn't really focused on submarines that much. Its because of their limited utility in the choke point of 1st island chain. In wide open ocean they could be a bigger threat but not within 1st island chain.
They have been focused on submarines and are bumping them out like crazy. Not a lot of News about them due to their secretive nature. it's estimated that they are producing 3-4 nuclear attack subs per year.
 
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