PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

SinoAmericanCW

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Japan could be blockaded pretty easily but doing an actual invasion would be PHENOMENALLAY difficult.
There's no conceivable scenario under which an invasion of Japan, South Korea, or even Taiwan would be necessary.

Japan and South Korea respectively
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of their energy. Both countries also have very limited
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(Germany shown for comparison).

Although the World Bank lacks data for Taiwan, its situation is similar to Japan and SK.

In the event of war, none of the U.S.'s WESTPAC allies can survive if China can establish control over the airspace and maritime LOCs.

The real question has never been whether China can invade Taiwan (or Japan), but whether China can win a full-blown air and sea war against the U.S. coalition.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Aha I see what you mean. Maybe the all-out incapacitation strike I mentioned earlier would have to part of the blockade then. This means the blockade would happen at the same time as PLAAF and PLARF conduct massive SEAD and standoff strikes until all ROCA's SAM units and military airports (and all ROCAF fighter jets) were put out of action....
That's not what I said, but let's take a closer look at what you said. I will be clear that first and foremost, China has many options to increase pressure on Taiwan, including military options short of invasion – limited campaigns to seize Taiwan-controlled islands off China's coast, blockades of Taiwan's ports and economic quarantines to stifle the island's commerce. Under a total incapacitation blow with a subsequent landing operation, I believe the blockade would have to be applied regardless of how the PLA begins the bombing operation. The blockade exists for a reason, to ensure the forces that execute it a certain degree of control over a certain area, with the purpose of preventing or hindering the passage of unauthorized ships and aircraft. Due to its implications for traffic in neutral countries, in principle, the blockade must be the subject of a formal declaration and, even if it is not internationally accepted, it is necessary that there are real conditions to make it effective, using the object of military force to implement, China would call this a strategic blockade in the PLA's doctrinal document, "The 2020 Science of Military Strategy."

One thing little commented on in its concept and real application would be how the US could respond to this, China using the formal declaration of blockade, would force the US to discuss China's terms and conditions before going to war, even if they could previously refuse them, it would make the discussion mandatory for Americans in trying to alienate their allies to go to war against China. Therefore, blocking as a response capability to attacks can serve as a security guarantee measure and is a considerable deterrent to any potential attacker, including providing the PLA with escalation management, and can be used effectively to inhibit or prevent for adversaries to employ their forces, being an object of containment for the Chinese.
Then you got the issues of Taiwan's own ballistic and cruise missiles, which could still target the Mainland's railway, roads, ports, airports, and other dual-use infrastructures. The massive missile and airstrikes against Taiwan would then happen while PLAN warships and aircrafts surround the Island.
This is a very real possibility, even Taiwan is ready to receive 1,000 "missiles" in 2024, but this would also depend greatly on the ROCA's initial readiness capacity at the time of the start of the conflict. In that same condition, under the terms you argued earlier, the ROCA would have full situational awareness and raise the readiness of all its combat systems before the start of the conflict, the ROCA would have enough time to do so, because to accumulate the forces necessary to For the PLA to invade Taiwan, it would take weeks and/or months, giving both Taiwan and its allies necessary reaction time to prepare. Already under a lightning preventive air-naval attack with strategic surprise and a minimum tactical surprise, this readiness of the ROCA would not be as high, thus giving the joint PLA forces enough time to disable the ROCA's support/logistics points, making it impossible for Taiwan to expected response, at worst, decreasing ROCA's responsiveness.
Now, assuming all of the ROCAF, ROCN, and cruise missile units were neutralised within the first 8 hours of conflict (if PLA were successful), and the Island of Formosa becomes fully surrounded by PLAN vessels whilst Taipei still refuses to surrender albeit lacking all offensive means to fight back? By this time hundreds of thousands of both guided and unguided ordnances have been dropped on Taiwan with roughly 30,000+ ROC military and 10,000+ civilian deaths (yes, in just 8 hours...
I still have doubts that these Taiwanese cruise missiles are being aimed at PLA combat systems. Yourself said that they can target dual-use infrastructure, such as railways, roads, ports and airports, as well as other compensating dual-use targets. ROCA simply does not have any chance in a war of attrition with the PLA, the best initiative that ROCA can offer its allies is to attack these dual-use infrastructures, even as a way of pressuring mainland Chinese society to demand alternative solutions to the CCP around the invasion, I would even say that the ROCA would try to attack the Three Gorges Dam, knowing that this was a compensator target. The fact that they refuse to surrender means absolutely nothing, because what is at stake here is not Taiwan, but the entry of the allied cavalry into the conflict, the PLA would need to disable the ROCA, anyway, this will have to be done mandatorily, considering the invasion in a week or just the air-naval blockade, the difference is whether Taiwan will have to be invaded before reinforcements arrive or after the situation stabilizes around its allies, with the PLA dissuading or militarily denying aid Taiwan's ally.
Now you have a situation where the Taiwanese population become more determined to fight. The PLARF's conventional missiles units are running low on ammo (all DF-11s, 15s, and 16s expended). The PLARF's fighter and bomber units need to regroup in airports deep inside China to avoid surprise attacks against their former airports...
You are considering that China would be in a reactive situation in this scenario. There is no way for the West to hide the game of whether or not they will intervene against China, even if they manage to do that, there is no way to hide all the military preparation and accumulation of forces, at this stage, the PLA would be much more active attacking these concentration points , wherever you are in Japan/Korea/Singapore or any other country in the Pacific, in addition, I find the idea of the PLA running out of ammunition to be incoherent, considering that 1 year earlier, the Chinese would probably multiply the production of ammunition and missiles, I believe that This is a fantasy scenario, I'm not the one saying that, but analysts who estimate how to predict the moment that China will attack, one of the points aimed at knowing the approximate moment of the invasion is precisely a period of 6 months to 1 year before with a huge increase in armaments production.
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Another thing, in your scenario in which you describe an operation to conquer Taiwan in a week, in this scenario it would be even worse, because the accumulation of forces and troop concentrations on the coast would all be subject to observation, by any means. , giving enough time for all of Taiwan's allies to prepare simultaneously like China, this way, when the AR begins, these concentrations and distributions of Taiwan's allies would already be ready or almost completed to intervene in favor of their ally. Under a lightning naval air blockade, the interval would be in a matter of days or even hours, but here the AR would have already started, with the Chinese mobilizing at the same time that the West also carried out its mobilizations, the difference is that China would be accompanying all this accumulation, while attacking the ROCA with the naval air blockade.
For Xi and CMC sitting in the Western Hill's command bunker, should they just declare that they have "taught the Taiwanese separatists a lesson" and call off subsequent military operations? Or proceed and risk WWIII with most of the PLAN and PLAAF risk being annihilated, while transports vessels sunk with their tanks and thousands of marines onboard?
The day this happens, in any alternative scenario, nuclear warheads would already be flying back and forth simultaneously.
I don't the CMC having any good options anyway. The most China could achieve is to bomb Taiwan back to the stone age, so Taiwan no longer has the economic, industrial, and military might to pursue political independence (but it still does not prevent Taiwan from unilaterally declaring independence ...
The CMC has many options, there is no ideal option, this will largely depend on the geostrategic situation at the time. A campaign to take over islands controlled by Taiwan, naval blockade of ports, quarantine to suffocate the island, among others - what I still have doubts about is the crisis management system, the formation of a National Security Council system could be interesting for China, I still don't know if they have an adequate system in place given the complex conditions surrounding the AR. However, as things progress, I believe that PR is an increasingly distant desire, at least as long as the US is still fully present in the Western Pacific, just complete the US's recent actions, opening bases in the Philippines with the opportunity to expand further.
 

Hood_Rat

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There's no conceivable scenario under which an invasion of Japan, South Korea, or even Taiwan would be necessary.

Japan and South Korea respectively
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of their energy. Both countries also have very limited
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(Germany shown for comparison).

Although the World Bank lacks data for Taiwan, its situation is similar to Japan and SK.

In the event of war, none of the U.S.'s WESTPAC allies can survive if China can establish control over the airspace and maritime LOCs.

The real question has never been whether China can invade Taiwan (or Japan), but whether China can win a full-blown air and sea war against the U.S. coalition.

Type-12s and the newer US land attack missiles can be fired from Kyushu, let alone Okinawa, into the fleet HQ of the North Sea Fleet HQ and bases. Ground forces will be necessary to overrun the land based missile launchers. Similarly land based missile launchers can tag the South Sea Fleet HQ from the norther Filipino island of Luzon. As we've seen from Gulf War I and II, even with total air superiority, search and destroy against ballistic missile TELs is astoundingly difficult.

Also, sans foreign food imports and assuming Chinese destruction of Japanese fertilizer stockpiles, Japanese per capita food availability is about 550 calories per day. Roughly around the level of calories available to the German sixth army in Stalingrad after the Soviet army cut off their land supply lines. Mass starvation would ensure in the home isles within a month or two.

That being said I don't think the US forces will give a shit if Japanese civilians are starving and will continue hostilities from the territory of Japan.

In general a post war settlement that doesn't end with the total demilitarization and occupation of Japan (so they can never build nukes) and Chinese bases in the Philippines which can be used to threaten Australia and New Zealand in the inevitable next war is simply not worth.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I agree. Either US can surrender, or Japan must enter the war for there to be any meaningful chance of US winning. There is a possibility of Japan die for US without US directly involved, but that is wishing for opponent to make mistakes. Poor assumption for planning.

The question then becomes if China were to fight Japan and win, to what extent should it pursue a victory condition. A total blockade is without question. It will cripple their economy as well as deny food and energy. Japanese will likely sue for peace after conventional military defeat. I know Chinese leaders have a habit of risk aversion. They might just call it a day and celeberate the win on Taiwan. If that were to happen it would be short sighted. This is especially the case if China has to beat US to get here.

At that point China could easily push more for more gains. Japan will remain an American ally after reclaiming Taiwan, China must make sure it is completely neutralized as much as China could. The below lists are a list of demand China could make for it to happen. Items are organized from easiest to accept to hardest.

  1. Remove all American base in the country and renounce the alliance.
  2. Disarm
  3. Reparation for damage caused for historical damage to current damage (can go quite high if you do the math).
  4. Regime change and means to enforce it.
  5. Cede all over sea territory like Okinawa, reducing threat they can pose should they rebel.
  6. Permanent troop stationing on main land Japan.
  7. Further territorial ceding/fragmentation.
From 3 and up, simply blockade becomes insufficient to demand. There needs to more. Invading main land might be too much. Taking a few islands could help. Perhaps blocking Hokaido farms to main land could provide leverage to negotiation. Food is short as is, deny one of their agricultural province will accelerate the siege.
 

SinoAmericanCW

New Member
Registered Member
I agree. Either US can surrender, or Japan must enter the war for there to be any meaningful chance of US winning. There is a possibility of Japan die for US without US directly involved, but that is wishing for opponent to make mistakes. Poor assumption for planning.

The planning assumption should be that both the U.S. and Japan will enter the war in an active manner.

The idea that Japan would intervene alone is a fantasy. The idea that the U.S. would shirk from a fight is also, in all likelihood, a fantasy.

The question then becomes if China were to fight Japan and win, to what extent should it pursue a victory condition. A total blockade is without question. It will cripple their economy as well as deny food and energy. Japanese will likely sue for peace after conventional military defeat. I know Chinese leaders have a habit of risk aversion. They might just call it a day and celeberate the win on Taiwan. If that were to happen it would be short sighted. This is especially the case if China has to beat US to get here.

Any war that doesn't end with the expulsion of the U.S. from the WESTPAC, as well as the dismantlement of its alliance system in Asia, isn't worth the cost.

At that point China could easily push more for more gains. Japan will remain an American ally after reclaiming Taiwan, China must make sure it is completely neutralized as much as China could. The below lists are a list of demand China could make for it to happen. Items are organized from easiest to accept to hardest.

  1. Remove all American base in the country and renounce the alliance.
  2. Disarm
  3. Reparation for damage caused for historical damage to current damage (can go quite high if you do the math).
  4. Regime change and means to enforce it.
  5. Cede all over sea territory like Okinawa, reducing threat they can pose should they rebel.
  6. Permanent troop stationing on main land Japan.
  7. Further territorial ceding/fragmentation.

Points (1) and (2) are sensible. Point (5) should be strictly limited to China annexing the Diaoyus. Point (6) should apply only to the Ryukyus and the Bonin/Volcano Islands.

Points (3), (4) and (7) would be mistakes that would only pointlessly antagonize the Japanese. If anything, China should help Japan restore normalcy and economic vitality as soon as possible postwar.

The goal would be to treat the defeated Japanese with magnanimity, so as to facilitate their (initially begrudging) integration into a China-centric East Asian order.

From 3 and up, simply blockade becomes insufficient to demand. There needs to more. Invading main land might be too much. Taking a few islands could help. Perhaps blocking Hokaido farms to main land could provide leverage to negotiation. Food is short as is, deny one of their agricultural province will accelerate the siege.

No need: the defeat of the U.S. and Japanese armed forces would lead, ipso facto, to the surrender of Japan.
 

OTCDebunker

New Member
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Everyone here has miscalculated and gravely overestimated the amount of political will left to fight a war against a behemoth like China in the civilian populations of the Westoids and their prostitutes in Japan and South Korea.

Let's just start with America for now because we all know that America is who sets the stage, writes the script, and pulls the strings of all its puppets. If even American political will dissolves like sugar in hot coffee then none of the others are going to stick around and fight it out while the big boss is sitting on his fat ass eating McDonald's and screaming at the TV about his football team losing.

I'm going to first go out on a limb here and guess that there's a pretty big chunk of you guys here who must've never grown up in America as children...or you have been absent from American soil for quite some years now at the very least.

Because the real truth is that there is literally ZERO political will or morale for another war. Any war. At all...even against a weak opponent like if another Iraq War 2.0 happened. Much less a near-peer like China.

Anti-military sentiment is at an all-time record high amongst Gen Z and also Millennials whom finally realized how badly they were used by their elites in Iraq and Afghanistan. Notice that I said anti-MILITARY sentiment. Not anti-WAR.

That's right. Even the very military itself. The actual organization of their own country's armed forces is extremely unpopular and outright hated even. And that's not just the liberals. It's actually happening to more conservative populations too.

Why? Ok that is a story that will take many books to finish, but to sum it up it's because Gen Z and other younger Americans are seeing just how badly joining the military utterly ruins your life in most cases.

Far too many people come out as broken, hollow, shell of a husk of a human being only to end in a downward spiral eventually culminating in a suicide. A successful suicide. Far too many veterans themselves have all said how much they hated it, how much they wish they would've done something else, how much they regretted, etc. And far too many people are coming out with stories from the other side where it's starting to educate American youngsters about the evils their military committed against people who are just the same as them. Ordinary people.

And unlike the old baby boomer sociopaths and full blown racists the younger generations of Americans at least have a vague idea that the human lives ruined and destroyed by the vastly unpopular and unjust wars of the last 60 years are kinda, sorta the same as theirs. This is unlike their grandparents who straight up enjoyed and sadistically took pleasure in genociding non-white peoples.

Now look at the other side. What do you have?

The answer is that you have far too FEW people who've joined the military and used that to make their lives better. Far too FEW veterans who came out and tell tales of how the military changed them from an undisciplined immature mess to a responsible and disciplined adult. Far too FEW old timers telling young folks that they should join instead of "slam the door shut in the recruiters face".

In previous generations and decades the military was very well a pretty good way to escape the cycle of destitute poverty if you were a poor kid. Join up, serve wel and you can use the GI Bill to go to college and enter the middle class, or use the Helmets-to-Hardhats program to join a union or a trade, or get a job with ANY police or law enforcement organization in the country, or any fire department for that matter, or all of those 3-letter agencies (FBI, CIA, NSA...all of China's 'closest' friends ), or any number of federal government jobs, state government jobs, city or county government jobs...all of whom offer a full retirement pension.

(Just for the record I still believe that if you truly that poor and you didn't play your cards right as a child and can't get into college...then the military may well be your best bet still even to this day, just not as good as it was before)

Nowadays, almost none of this is true. The GI Bill is not enough for many colleges, cops and law enforcement is facing a severe crisis with "dEfUnD Da PoLicE", for similar lacking of funding reasons government jobs are not hiring nearly as aggressively and require far higher qualifications then just an enlistment, and America deindustrialized so trades and unions don't have positions to fill like before since there's just no jobs or projects to be had.

So what does this all mean? It means that the military, whom recruits HEAVILY from poor kids, basically lost it's only real appeal to their recruitment base.

The only ones left to recruit are the gung-ho PSYCHOPATHS who are only joining because they just want to kill people or the ones still too brainwashed to realize that they're not serving their country but they sure think they are.

So what do you think happens when government agents start showing up to houses with conscription letters for a war against a Chinese military that is absolutely sinking ships and downing F35s to people whom never even wanted to join when it was during peacetime much less war?

Oh and remember that American citizens have lots of guns...so are the agents just going to show up in full battle rattle to every house expecting a 50/50 chance that maybe this conscript will decide that he's rather going to die here than overseas?

And all of this you guys think will happen because a buncha racist anglo-bastard descendants are going to die for tAiwaNeSE fReeedumbbbbbbb?

Lol no Americans are selfish AS FUCK as their second most popular cultural value, and they absolutely wouldn't fight and die for anything other than pure selfish greed and selfish interests and benefits for themselves...much less dying for a country of east Asians.

We here all know that the American economy is doing badly. Americans know it even better than half this forum. Because they are living it.

Here in America the sentiment among young people is very so that there is just no hope for the future. That things will get worse. That every day is doom and gloom and what not.

Well guess what? Militaries USUALLY flourish and LOVE economic conditions like these. Why? Because it's times like these that make recruitment numbers skyrocket through the roof...usually.

It's not happening anymore. This most predictable of military recruitment trends is not happening anymore. It's quite the shock actually.

Means that Americans are so fed up with war and with violence and with the military and even the thought of military life and service that they are defying simple cultural logic.

Recruitment and retention Plummet down the drain during times of war...until forced stop-loss comes into play.

Americans cannot even join the military during peacetime when the civilian sectors are badly wounded and military service may be one of the only ways to escape poverty and none of the risks such as dying in war or getting captured and tortured to death are at play, and you guys think that suddenly this trend of not joining the military will reverse itself because now all of the risks of war are here and half the benefits of joining the military are gone too?

Lol ya no that's not going to happen.

So if the conclusion is that even the crime boss leader cannot fight people to join and fight you really think the civilian populations of Japan, South Korea, etc. Are going to take one look at this and they won't come to a similar conclusion? No are you kidding me? They're going to say "FUCK NO! We know full well that you MURIkkkans are just using us to die against China while you sit back too cowardly to fight yourselves."

Lots of people (and countries) talk all sorts of shit...until they stand in front of the entrance to ring.

Lastly, just for the record...I hope the Japanese are stupid enough to give China the excuse to take revenge for what they did to our ancestors, and for some of us the spirits and souls of the tortured dead from Japanese monsters aren't actually ancestors.

And no! Invading Japan won't be difficult at all. They have no food capacity, no energy capacity, a population even less inclined for war than America, no manufacturing capacity, no industrial capacity, etc. War will burn right through all their stashes of food, energy, weapons, and political resolve FAST. And combined with a highly dense population it'll also mean that the Chinese military does not need to worry about spreading itself too wide and thin.
 

OTCDebunker

New Member
Registered Member
The planning assumption should be that both the U.S. and Japan will enter the war in an active manner.

The idea that Japan would intervene alone is a fantasy. The idea that the U.S. would shirk from a fight is also, in all likelihood, a fantasy.



Any war that doesn't end with the expulsion of the U.S. from the WESTPAC, as well as the dismantlement of its alliance system in Asia, isn't worth the cost.



Points (1) and (2) are sensible. Point (5) should be strictly limited to China annexing the Diaoyus. Point (6) should apply only to the Ryukyus and the Bonin/Volcano Islands.

Points (3), (4) and (7) would be mistakes that would only pointlessly antagonize the Japanese. If anything, China should help Japan restore normalcy and economic vitality as soon as possible postwar.

The goal would be to treat the defeated Japanese with magnanimity, so as to facilitate their (initially begrudging) integration into a China-centric East Asian order.



No need: the defeat of the U.S. and Japanese armed forces would lead, ipso facto, to the surrender of Japan.
America "shirking" war outright may be a fantasy. Or it may not be.

But America outright declaring war itself within this decade is for sure a fantasy.

You have forgotten just how unpopular Iraq and Afghanistan was, and not only that but just how much cultural scarring and damage it did to the reputation of the military and joining the military that those 2 wars did.

Right now the American government knows full well that if they fire the first shot, that if they initiate the war, or if even there is the tiniest of slivers of a faint perception that America is the one doing the invading...then the war was already lost long before it started.

Younger Americans will absolutely not stand for it, and by younger I actually mean anyone 40 or younger as of today's date.

In other words, the overwhelming bulk of the lions share of the majority of people even capable of performing military service.

This is why I honestly believe now that Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan a few years back was a legitimate and genuine attempt to trigger war with china. She was truly trying to goad the CCP and the PLA into firing the first shot. Because if China does that and falls for the trap then America can actually brainwash their people successfully (or at least the American regime believes it can) whereas without china firing the first shot the war will be untenably unpopular from the start.

She knew full well that there were SEAL teams waiting in submarines right off the coast of Taiwan to extract her in case the plan went accordingly. That's why it was not only so public, but it was also so obviously taunting in tone as well.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
America "shirking" war outright may be a fantasy. Or it may not be.

But America outright declaring war itself within this decade is for sure a fantasy.

You have forgotten just how unpopular Iraq and Afghanistan was, and not only that but just how much cultural scarring and damage it did to the reputation of the military and joining the military that those 2 wars did.

Right now the American government knows full well that if they fire the first shot, that if they initiate the war, or if even there is the tiniest of slivers of a faint perception that America is the one doing the invading...then the war was already lost long before it started.

Younger Americans will absolutely not stand for it, and by younger I actually mean anyone 40 or younger as of today's date.

In other words, the overwhelming bulk of the lions share of the majority of people even capable of performing military service.

This is why I honestly believe now that Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan a few years back was a legitimate and genuine attempt to trigger war with china. She was truly trying to goad the CCP and the PLA into firing the first shot. Because if China does that and falls for the trap then America can actually brainwash their people successfully (or at least the American regime believes it can) whereas without china firing the first shot the war will be untenably unpopular from the start.

She knew full well that there were SEAL teams waiting in submarines right off the coast of Taiwan to extract her in case the plan went accordingly. That's why it was not only so public, but it was also so obviously taunting in tone as well.
Americans have short memory. They will fight Chinese even knowing it is a bad idea, just like they fought in Vietnam knowing Korean War is bad idea, fight in Iraq knowing Vietnam war is bad idea, then fight Afghanistan knowing Iraq was bad idea. Now whether they will come out on top fighting a bad war is another story, but we should assume American will fight a war even if it sounds irrational.

Yes younger generation will not like it. They may even cause more internal damage than China could inflict, but that will not stop their leadership from making bad decisions until risk of revolution is high. Or perhaps even threat of revolution is not enough depending on how incompetent 2033 leadership is.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
China's goals and objectives in a Pacific War 2.0 should be strictly guided by reason+logic, realistic tactical+strategical needs, and comprehensive capabilities of the time, not by wishful thinkings, dreams and fantasies.
Yes and? What do you think qualifies as realistic tactical and strategic needs?
 
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