PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
What is your point?

In war you need to use your weapons intelligently. US would also need to ration their weapons for attacks that directly support their forces, not random ones that easily get caught by air defence and wastes valuable supplies which could have been used to help the very beleaguered invasion force under full Chinese attack.

For the same reasons, China would be better served using their firepower to break apart the attacking forces, rather than waste time trying to suppress NORAD installations, when said installations can probably be repaired at a faster rate than China can suppress them across the Pacific, and when such installations doesn't really support the urgent threat to China, which is the invasion force.

Use your brain. China might do a few sporadic PR strikes, but there would be more publicly impactful targets than NORAD, and the overarching focus would be on using most fires to break apart the US assault. After US loses offensive capability, then China can just do whatever they want.
My point is, I’m gittin’ my popcorn!
I recently watched a, very one-sided, fight that most expected to be 50/50, but many knew would not be because one combatant was a prodding, predictable tactician!
I’m predictin’, from what I’m readin’, here, that this one, should it come, will be much the same!
After Taiwan‘s independence, maybe Hong Kong can go for it, too, huh? Hell, maybe, even Macau...
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sunflower 200 specifications (Shaheed-136 equivalent) from the Drone Thread

Payload 40kg
Range 2000km
Speed 160-220km/h
Endurance 12 hours
Takeoff weight 175kg
Flight control system 1kg
Avionics 10kg
Fuel 160 litres
Length 3.2m
Wingspan 2.5m

Launch Unit is a trailer shown carrying 8 munitions

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Not listed is the maximum operating altitude, which is being reported as 4km elsewhere for a Shaheed.

@Blitzo

Note that a 4km operating altitude is beyond the effective range of gun-based SHORAD systems.
So the only way is to shoot them down is with SAMs, all of which are expensive compared to a $20K Shaheed.

And you can't allow a swarm of these to get close, because there will be a few variants specifically targeting SAM systems and SPAAGs. They could have SDB-2 guidance systems, launch $500 FPV Drones or 8kg guided MAM munitions for example. Note the range of FPV Drones and MAM is listed as 25km+

And each SPAAG costs circa $15 Mn and each Patriot Battery $400 Mn

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EDIT. Suppose you halve the fuel to just 80 litres. It should still get 1000km+ of range, which is sufficient for many targets. Instead, they could increase the payload from 40kg to 100kg.



Chinese version of Shahed-136 kamikaze drone presented at Russia's Army-2023: Sunflower 200
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Sunflower 200 specifications (Shaheed-136 equivalent) from the Drone Thread

Payload 40kg
Range 2000km
Speed 160-220km/h
Endurance 12 hours
Takeoff weight 175kg
Flight control system 1kg
Avionics 10kg
Fuel 160 litres
Length 3.2m
Wingspan 2.5m

Launch Unit is a trailer shown carrying 8 munitions

---

Not listed is the maximum operating altitude, which is being reported as 4km elsewhere for a Shaheed.

@Blitzo

Note that a 4km operating altitude is beyond the effective range of gun-based SHORAD systems.
So the only way is to shoot them down is with SAMs, all of which are expensive compared to a $20K Shaheed.

And you can't allow a swarm of these to get close, because there will be a few variants specifically targeting SAM systems and SPAAGs. They could have SDB-2 guidance systems, launch $500 FPV Drones or 8kg guided MAM munitions for example. Note the range of FPV Drones and MAM is listed as 25km+

And each SPAAG costs circa $15 Mn and each Patriot Battery $400 Mn

---

EDIT. Suppose you halve the fuel to just 80 litres. It should still get 1000km+ of range, which is sufficient for many targets. Instead, they could increase the payload from 40kg to 100kg.

Your overvalued idea around "cost effective munitions" saturating actual competent organized defensive systems is only matched by your presumption on extrapolating future Chinese military capabilities based on Chinese GDP as a multiple of the US from a population basis.


If you want to guide a weapon like this at distances of 1000-2000km while also being useful enough for its tiny payload to be useful, you are going to have to give it high end midcourse guidance and a high end terminal seekers, all with sufficient ECCM to do its job, while also being light enough to not compromise the properties of a suicide drone like this driven by a tiny prop, and at sufficiently low cost.


If one can put the guidance system of something like AKF-98A into a platform like this without compromising cost, weight and range, then sure it would be viable.

But if that cannot be demonstrated, then stop speaking of these sort of weapons as if they have a competent role in a high end conflict, or assuming that they can be made viable in a high end conflict without becoming so expensive that they lose their spammable traits which make them useful to begin with.
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
What is your point?

In war you need to use your weapons intelligently. US would also need to ration their weapons for attacks that directly support their forces, not random ones that easily get caught by air defence and wastes valuable supplies which could have been used to help the very beleaguered invasion force under full Chinese attack.

For the same reasons, China would be better served using their firepower to break apart the attacking forces, rather than waste time trying to suppress NORAD installations, when said installations can probably be repaired at a faster rate than China can suppress them across the Pacific, and when such installations doesn't really support the urgent threat to China, which is the invasion force.

Use your brain. China might do a few sporadic PR strikes, but there would be more publicly impactful targets than NORAD, and the overarching focus would be on using most fires to break apart the US assault. After US loses offensive capability, then China can just do whatever they want.
Short story is, until China is comprehensively, and much more powerful, than the US, care needs to be taken in the choice of targets.

Guy with a gun vs another guy with a gun, care needs to be taken to get the best bang for your buck and minimize damage.

Guy in a tank vs a guy with a gun, tank driver gets to have some fun.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
My point is, I’m gittin’ my popcorn!
I recently watched a, very one-sided, fight that most expected to be 50/50, but many knew would not be because one combatant was a prodding, predictable tactician!
I’m predictin’, from what I’m readin’, here, that this one, should it come, will be much the same!
After Taiwan‘s independence, maybe Hong Kong can go for it, too, huh? Hell, maybe, even Macau...
Oh yeah, TW, HK, Macau, sure. Cuz stealing core territory from a nuclear power will be that easy.

Rather than contemplating popcorn, you should probably contemplate what MRE flavor you get to eat as an mobilized.

Your government will need more force than it has ever shown in the history of its existence if it wants to successfully invade. When they call, you will become part of that effort, willingly or not. And your family and acquaintances will become acceptable targets.

I'd tell you to think carefully about what you wish for, but I know nothing any regular American says or does has an effect on what their government anyways.

Enjoy the ride. Try not to become part of a pacific reef just because a geriatric oligarch in your government wanted extra territory.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Note that a 4km operating altitude is beyond the effective range of gun-based SHORAD systems.
That is a problem you can wish away. Just migrate to existing 40, 57, 76 mm designs.
So the only way is to shoot them down is with SAMs, all of which are expensive compared to a $20K Shaheed.
What is the price of what they can protect? How can't SPAAG engage these munitions during their final dive? And you can be sure that you could get very cheap SAMs for shooting down very vulnerable Shaheds. The Iron Dome's Tamir interceptors are below 100k each and they shoot down stuff much less vulnerable than Shahed rather successfully. They can even destroy 155 mm shells, which are small, tough, and supersonic objects that stay in the air for a short time period. SAMs are expensive because they are designed for engaging fighter jets from far away. If you want something to shoot down Shaheds within 20 km, that's easy.
And you can't allow a swarm of these to get close, because there will be a few variants specifically targeting SAM systems and SPAAGs. They could have SDB-2 guidance systems, launch $500 FPV Drones or 8kg guided MAM munitions for example. Note the range of FPV Drones and MAM is listed as 25km+
So you want something with enough situational awareness to find SAMs and can launch glide bombs. That is a proper UCAV and is going to cost millions. And it will definitely not be survivable or have good means of engaging air defense. Who is going to control 500 USD FPVs over enemy territory? You are going to need a relay. The SEAD UCAV will be the relay. Which means it will be extra expensive. Those FPVs will still be useless if jamming is present. Speaking of communications, your normal Shaheds need them too. That kind of communications is expensive, especially if ECCM is needed. Or you can depend on military INS, GNSS, DSMAC and TERCOM, the stuff that is responsible for a good chunk of a cruise missile's price. That cheap 40 kg warhead needs good accuracy, which is possible either through good guidance or human-in-the-loop. Which are both impossible at 20k at the strike distances we talk about.

This is like one of those "Why we don't use cheap drones against warships" questions on Quora. You start thinking of a drone that would do an acceptable job against a warship. One that has a chance of actually reaching and damaging it... You inevitably reach an ASCM as a result.

You aren't getting a good missile for 20k unless your purpose is bombing residential buildings randomly. Your stuff is going get shot down by missiles and autocannon shells that are not expensive. Whatever hits will be mostly ineffective because of bad accuracy and a small warhead. And you are definitely not getting anything that could do SEAD for 20k. Start at 2 mil.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
That is a problem you can wish away. Just migrate to existing 40, 57, 76 mm designs.

What is the price of what they can protect? How can't SPAAG engage these munitions during their final dive? And you can be sure that you could get very cheap SAMs for shooting down very vulnerable Shaheds. The Iron Dome's Tamir interceptors are below 100k each and they shoot down stuff much less vulnerable than Shahed rather successfully. They can even destroy 155 mm shells, which are small, tough, and supersonic objects that stay in the air for a short time period. SAMs are expensive because they are designed for engaging fighter jets from far away. If you want something to shoot down Shaheds within 20 km, that's easy.

So you want something with enough situational awareness to find SAMs and can launch glide bombs. That is a proper UCAV and is going to cost millions. And it will definitely not be survivable or have good means of engaging air defense. Who is going to control 500 USD FPVs over enemy territory? You are going to need a relay. The SEAD UCAV will be the relay. Which means it will be extra expensive. Those FPVs will still be useless if jamming is present. Speaking of communications, your normal Shaheds need them too. That kind of communications is expensive, especially if ECCM is needed. Or you can depend on military INS, GNSS, DSMAC and TERCOM, the stuff that is responsible for a good chunk of a cruise missile's price. That cheap 40 kg warhead needs good accuracy, which is possible either through good guidance or human-in-the-loop. Which are both impossible at 20k at the strike distances we talk about.

This is like one of those "Why we don't use cheap drones against warships" questions on Quora. You start thinking of a drone that would do an acceptable job against a warship. One that has a chance of actually reaching and damaging it... You inevitably reach an ASCM as a result.

You aren't getting a good missile for 20k unless your purpose is bombing residential buildings randomly. Your stuff is going get shot down by missiles and autocannon shells that are not expensive. Whatever hits will be mostly ineffective because of bad accuracy and a small warhead. And you are definitely not getting anything that could do SEAD for 20k. Start at 2 mil.
Good writeup but Shahed 136 is actually surprisingly rudimentary. It has only a 1 way data link on the main drone, it can listen but not transmit, and you can launch it blind and deaf. It doesn't have an onboard seeker, it just uses dual GPS/Glonass navigation like a JDAM. JDAMs only cost 40k each.

The way it handles changing targets is by being relayed new info via a relay drone like an Orlan that is close to the front lines. But since China can't get that for distant targets, they will be reserved for stationary target strikes.

A 40 kg warhead can take out soft targets relatively easily.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Good writeup but Shahed 136 is actually surprisingly rudimentary. It has only a 1 way data link on the main drone, it can listen but not transmit, and you can launch it blind and deaf. It doesn't have an onboard seeker, it just uses dual GPS/Glonass navigation like a JDAM. JDAMs only cost 40k each.

The way it handles changing targets is by being relayed new info via a relay drone like an Orlan that is close to the front lines. But since China can't get that for distant targets, they will be reserved for stationary target strikes.

A 40 kg warhead can take out soft targets relatively easily.
I would like the learn the Russian Shahed's price, success rate against defended stuff and accuracy. 40 kg is definitely not enough if accuracy is not superb. The Mk-81 was withdrawn from the US service because its effects were found to be not enough. Even the JDAM kit for it was canceled. 125 kg class bombs only returned to the US service in the form of SDBs, a purpose built gliding bomb with a very sophisticated guidance package. The recent ones, in some conditions, achieve a sub-1 m CEP. If the Shahed's accuracy is like 10 meters with that 40 kg payload, then it would be too weak for a lot of things. And if adding some more accurate and jamming-resistant navigation bumps their price to 100k or so, why not just build more CJ-10s then? It would terrain hug at Mach 0.8 and deliver a 500 kg warhead within meters. I would take that over 6-8 Shaheds anytime.

I think Shahed-type ammo is useful within rocket artillery distances. I mean sub-300 km by that. At that distance communications are easy, you don't need to fly for hours over deep enemy territory, etc...

Here is the Harop. The Harpy was among the original loitering munitions and the Harop succeeded it. Man-in-the-loop, good control software, ESM and IR, etc... Limited to 200 km by communications. Costs millions. Israel's concept for kamikaze drones was a bit different. Rather than cheap cruise missiles, they are more like loitering and situation-aware weapons that can be deployed to places where a threat can emerge. No deep strike or facility destruction purposes were considered.
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
I would like the learn the Russian Shahed's price, success rate against defended stuff and accuracy. 40 kg is definitely not enough if accuracy is not superb. The Mk-81 was withdrawn from the US service because its effects were found to be not enough. Even the JDAM kit for it was canceled. 125 kg class bombs only returned to the US service in the form of SDBs, a purpose built gliding bomb with a very sophisticated guidance package. The recent ones, in some conditions, achieve a sub-1 m CEP. If the Shahed's accuracy is like 10 meters with that 40 kg payload, then it would be too weak for a lot of things. And if adding some more accurate and jamming-resistant navigation bumps their price to 100k or so, why not just build more CJ-10s then? It would terrain hug at Mach 0.8 and deliver a 500 kg warhead within meters. I would take that over 6-8 Shaheds anytime.

I think Shahed-type ammo is useful within rocket artillery distances. I mean sub-300 km by that. At that distance communications are easy, you don't need to fly for hours over deep enemy territory, etc...

Here is the Harop. The Harpy was among the original loitering munitions and the Harop succeeded it. Man-in-the-loop, good control software, ESM and IR, etc... Limited to 200 km by communications. Costs millions. Israel's concept for kamikaze drones was a bit different. Rather than cheap cruise missiles, they are more like loitering and situation-aware weapons that can be deployed to places where a threat can emerge. No deep strike or facility destruction purposes were considered.
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TBH, I'm starting to have a feeling that some do view the Shahed-type loitering munitions as a cheap, massively-available tools for use in long-range strategic bombing campaigns against faraway locations that can be launched right from Chinese soil (such as Japan, South Korea and the Philippines), like the ones conducte by the USAAF and RAF against military installations - But mainly against cities, public infrastructures, administrative, financial and industrial centers of Imperial Japan and N4zi Germany - During WW2.

To put it simply, using the Shaheds as cheap ultra long-range artillery systems for strategic bombardment - Though I'm not necessarily fully agreeing with such ideas.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I would like the learn the Russian Shahed's price, success rate against defended stuff and accuracy. 40 kg is definitely not enough if accuracy is not superb. The Mk-81 was withdrawn from the US service because its effects were found to be not enough. Even the JDAM kit for it was canceled. 125 kg class bombs only returned to the US service in the form of SDBs, a purpose built gliding bomb with a very sophisticated guidance package. The recent ones, in some conditions, achieve a sub-1 m CEP. If the Shahed's accuracy is like 10 meters with that 40 kg payload, then it would be too weak for a lot of things. And if adding some more accurate and jamming-resistant navigation bumps their price to 100k or so, why not just build more CJ-10s then? It would terrain hug at Mach 0.8 and deliver a 500 kg warhead within meters. I would take that over 6-8 Shaheds anytime.

I think Shahed-type ammo is useful within rocket artillery distances. I mean sub-300 km by that. At that distance communications are easy, you don't need to fly for hours over deep enemy territory, etc...

Here is the Harop. The Harpy was among the original loitering munitions and the Harop succeeded it. Man-in-the-loop, good control software, ESM and IR, etc... Limited to 200 km by communications. Costs millions. Israel's concept for kamikaze drones was a bit different. Rather than cheap cruise missiles, they are more like loitering and situation-aware weapons that can be deployed to places where a threat can emerge. No deep strike or facility destruction purposes were considered.
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Suicide drones aren't meant to take out small, mobile targets. They're there to hit enemy infrastructure.

The rocket force has a plethora of weapons for high end targets already. Having stroke piston powered drones allow them to get a larger piece of the strategic bombing action, before the air force can step in after SEAD is done.

That's all I'd see such platforms as, they're not some wonder weapon that will destroy a ton of enemy high or mid value platforms. But they will expose enemy air defenses to SEAD and will help China gain a powerful psychological advantage right out of the gate against the aggressor parties.

The obsession of cost - benefit trade is also misunderstood. More important than cost trades is production capacity.

War isn't won by not wasting more paper currency than the enemy. Otherwise you'd argue that cheap Tomahawk should simply not be intercepted by HQ-9s because the interceptor is likely more expensive? No, what's important is how fast a country's industry and replenish those platforms.

What is important to look at isnt if China's drones "cost" 100 000$ or 20 000$, what should be looked at is how much capacity to build such drones can exist, when factories start to be converted.

I would argue that China can afford spending way more money on every trade (around up to max 200-400% "unfavorable money trades").

Not only is the US economy around 30% smaller than China's, but as even Americans would know, a much larger share of China's economy is production and product development, vs banking and service sectors in America. The latter don't help build missiles/interceptors faster.

US is also going against tyranny of distance, adding even more extra costs to them.

Finally, China would be fighting for the freedom of their homeland, while US soldiers might be motivated by a vague sense of crusading against communism or something, but the point is that US soldiers would not be as motivated on the offensive as Chinese soldiers would be, fighting over their literal homes. So the cost of maintaining the morale and overall cohesion of the force would be more expensive for America as well.

So I would believe that unfavorable platform to platform trade cost is a red herring. China can easily go into seemingly really bad cost trades and still successfully repel an invasion.

Even if China's drone should end up expensive on paper, the industries will simply be forced to make it. Cut their profit margins and/or make people buy it with war bonds.
 
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