PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

Overbom

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You said whatever happens to Ukraine won’t have any material effect. If Russia invades and oil goes to $150 to 200 a barrel is that not going to have an material effect on the supply chain, manufacture, and the economy for several year? Will that not affect any short-mid term contingency plans over Taiwan?
No it won't affect Taiwan. Why would you think that supply chain, manufacturing, economy would matter?

Taiwan is first and foremost a military issue (that's how you can "convince" the Americans to go away). Whoever has the better military capability will ultimately win, or force the opponent to back down without going to war.

Oil, gas, energy, will have no effect on a Taiwan scenario. Do you think that if America's economy went into recession that the US would simply give up on Taiwan? No. The US would merely just print/borrow more money and continue its military spending.

Economies can go up and down but land is permanent. The US can't back down on Taiwan because its hegemony rests upon this matter. The moment it abandons Taiwan, it is basically admitting China's supremacy at the region.
 
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Blitzo

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If we look at US resolve to defend Taiwan, I think what happens in Ukraine could be very relevant.

From declassified historical documents from the Gorbachev days, we can see the Soviets were given multiple written assurances that there would be no NATO expansion eastwards. Yet NATO has ignored these pledges and Russia's protests on expansion into the former Soviet Bloc. After all, Russia was too weak to respond.

And put it this way, would the Soviets have contemplated withdrawing from Eastern Europe if they thought for a moment that NATO (their mortal enemy) was going to move in?

If you listen to Putin in recent interviews, Putin may have decided that NATO will just continue expanding into Ukraine unless something is done, and that this literally is a last stand to prevent a hostile military alliance establishing a firm base right next to Russia's core economic and industrial Motherland.

We also have Biden publicly saying that the US military will not intervene in Ukraine.

So at this point, it may well be that the only thing which will persuade Russia not to invade is a very public repudiation that NATO will ever expand in Ukraine. But that is simply bowing to the reality that allowing Ukraine to join NATO means that NATO now has an active war with Russia.

What happens next will have many lessons for overall Chinese strategy on Taiwan.

No, no, no.

Holy cow, trying to use the US policy to Russia-Ukraine as a bellwether or proxy or gauge for how US policy to China-Taiwan is at best msiguided, at worst it is dangerous.

For the US, the differences between RUS-UKR and CN-TW are so many, these are just the ones from the top of my head:
- The US has made it repeatedly clear that the pacific is its primary theater of interest, while other theaters (including Europe) are secondary, which is a recognition that China presents the most capable medium and long term geopolitical competitor to US power as a whole. Russia lacks such long term potential, and a Russian attack or invasion of Ukraine would not greatly change Russia's long term capability to challenge the US. Additionally, if the US intervenes in a Russian conflict, it would adversely affect their ability to focus on China and the pacific.
- RUS-UKR is largely a land war on a territory that has massive land borders with Russia, in a part of the world where the US has minimal pre-positioned land forces of its own, and in a recent historical context where the US despises to do overseas campaigns that rely heavily on "boots on the ground". CN-TW would largely be an air and naval war around an island where China shares no land border with Taiwan island and requires sealift and airlift to conduct an invasion, both of which in turn are much more vulnerable to even temporary moments of naval and air action to interdict them.
- Value of acquiring Ukraine vs value of acquiring Taiwan. Simply put, if Russia is able to say, successfully invade and annex the eastern 2/3rds of Ukraine (or even let's say the entirety of Ukraine), the change in Russia's long term geostrategic prospects does not get greatly altered. Yes, Russia now acquires a larger buffer for its western territories, but in the scale of the size of central and western Europe as a theater, such a buffer is relatively small. The value of Taiwan OTOH is much larger -- if China is able to successfully invade and reunify with Taiwan, not only does China now have direct access to the central pacific, but they now are also able to much more easily project power to the South China Sea and East China Sea, and in turn to more easily control the SLOCs of the western pacific at large, in turn having consequences of course for regional power dynamics.
- Nukes. At the moment, Russia's nuclear deterrence is simply much more capable than China's is, which places significantly more caution and pause in US willingness to outright directly get involved in conventional military conflict with.


Which is to say:
1. The US has much more reason and incentive to fight China over Taiwan, relative to reasons and incentives to fight Russia over Ukraine, due to not only the much greater long term geopolitical potential of China, but also the much greater geostrategic value of China successfully invading and reunifying Taiwan.
2. The US is much less deterred to avoid fighting China over Taiwan, relative to how deterred they are to fight Russia over Ukraine, due to a CN-TW conflict being largely air-naval in nature and thus playing much more to US strengths (than RUS-UKR which would be a largely land war), and also of course because of Russia's much more capable and devastating nuclear deterrent force.



It is important to see how the US reacts over Ukraine, but trying to apply US resolve, rationale and motivations over Ukraine to see how they might fit a Taiwan contingency must be absolutely treated with massive caution and careful limits.


I don't want this thread to become about Ukraine, but I think it is important to avoid generalizations when they're flawed.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
No it won't affect Taiwan. Why would you think that supply chain, manufacturing, economy would matter?

Taiwan is first and foremost a military issue (that's how you can "convince" the Americans to go away). Whoever has the better military capability will ultimately win, or force the opponent to back down without going to war.

Oil, gas, energy, will have no effect on a Taiwan scenario. Do you think that if America's economy went into recession that the US would simply give up on Taiwan? No. The US would merely just print/borrow more money and continue its military spending.

Economies can go up and down but land is permanent. The US can't back down on Taiwan because its hegemony rests upon this matter. The moment it abandons Taiwan, it is basically admitting China's supremacy at the region.
I don’t understand how you keep disregarding logistics. Yes, Taiwan is a military issue and it will depend on military capability but what do you think China is doing right now. Building up the military. Do you think those jets and warships are going to magically appear in large numbers during the late 2020s after the global economy implodes in the early 2020s?
 

tphuang

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I think all out war might be interesting to discuss, but is so extremely unlikely to happen. Americans generally have no desire to get involved in large, long lasting wars unless America itself is threatened. There just isn't any desire for this. That's why in all the publicly discussed war scenario, American generals have all talked about preventing China takeover of Taiwan and taking back Taiwan. And also about Taiwan needing to put up a fight before America is willing to get involved.

Now if we fast forward things until end of decade, I think it becomes even more unlikely as China's military technology gets closer to America's. And as quick victory over Taiwan becomes more likely. If you are an American president, how do you justify putting one of your carriers at risk when Taiwan loses out quickly? There is simply not a lot of reason for America to go into full war mode unless China is explicitly threatening continental USA.

If we do want to talk about a war of attrition, we have to consider elements outside of what's discussed so far. Yes, China's main war factories are more likely to be targeted and destroyed than the ones on continental USA. However, America also does have a global supply chain. Even if China cannot bomb continental USA, it can definitely target suppliers in other parts of the world. As we've seen with the reduced F-35 production in 2020/2021, even a slight disruption to supply chain could result in notable cuts in production. Now, just think about a case where East Asia supply chain gets completely cut off. The Western Europe supply chain gets bombed and severely reduced. Aside from military production, the change in average quality of life would be so humongous that every country will be begging US and China to settle peacefully.

And then we can think about energy sector. Sure, China is more at risk with oil important than America. However, it could also cut off global oil trade completely by bombing Middle Eastern oil fields or even more easily, have anti-ship missiles target a bunch of oil tankers around the gulf of hormuz. I can also realistically take out a good chunk of oil depot in Japan and all the Pacific islands. Such a spike in oil price and change in people's lives would put every country as well as American/Chinese citizens to peace table.

And I haven't even gotten to the possibility of financial wars yet. The countries can start massive financial wars by aggressively selling off government bond, leveraged financial instruments and such. That along with a major war will cause the kind of market sell off and collapse we have never seen before.

That's why I don't enjoy discussing all out wars and world domination. It doesn't make sense. Things will get really bad really quickly if we really want to talk about a war of attrition. China really just needs to be confident it can do a quick takeover and not make average Americans feel like their lives are endangered. It's not the 30s and 40s. People have high living standards don't want their entirely lives to be disrupted by a conflict on the other side of the world. That's why I don't think Taiwan will be as hard to take over as some have made it out on this thread.

China is building all these Z-8s that can carry lynx and other weapons and Z-20s that can carry soldiers and assault at the same time. These are all things that will allow them to surround Taipei from mountain side in an invasion. A quick execution of landing with overwhelming air power and large amphibious warships along with a bunch of helicopters dropping soldiers and ATVs from the East and Southern side of Taipei seem to matter a lot more than hypersonic weapons and such.
 

Blitzo

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I think all out war might be interesting to discuss, but is so extremely unlikely to happen. Americans generally have no desire to get involved in large, long lasting wars unless America itself is threatened. There just isn't any desire for this. That's why in all the publicly discussed war scenario, American generals have all talked about preventing China takeover of Taiwan and taking back Taiwan. And also about Taiwan needing to put up a fight before America is willing to get involved.

----

That's why I don't enjoy discussing all out wars and world domination. It doesn't make sense. Things will get really bad really quickly if we really want to talk about a war of attrition. China really just needs to be confident it can do a quick takeover and not make average Americans feel like their lives are endangered. It's not the 30s and 40s. People have high living standards don't want their entirely lives to be disrupted by a conflict on the other side of the world. That's why I don't think Taiwan will be as hard to take over as some have made it out on this thread.

I do understand where you are coming form, which is why I generally try to separate my discussion about Taiwan contingencies usually assuming that the US had not gotten involved at the time, to talk about the Taiwan part only.

But simultaneously, I think that people need to recognize with a clearer mind that if the US intervenes in a Taiwan contingency, then the PLA as it currently is simply will not have the resources to ward off a US intervention while also conducting a Taiwan invasion at the same time.
Additionally, I think if the US does intervene, then it is not reasonable and not prudent to assume that the US will simply give up if China manages to successfully invade Taiwan (like extracting a surrender from whatever form of govt is left on the island) even if China managed to do so in a relatively quick manner.
That is to say, it is necessary to assume that the resolve of the US is significant and where an outcome of a conflict can only be achieved by the destruction of US warfighting material capability rather than hoping that somehow China would be able to defeat them in terms of morale. The prospect of a devastating regional war with globe spanning consequences that is attritional in nature and which devastates China, has to be openly acknowledged as a likely consequence of US intervention, even if it is not discussed in detail.

I am very much okay with leaving a US-China conflict arising from a Taiwan contingency on the backburner.
But what I do not support is when people try to adopt a belief that China is somehow able to conduct a successful invasion of Taiwan in context of US military intervention, because as the correlation of forces currently stand, that is a pipe dream.

As the kids say, that is complete and utter copium.

Talking about how a PLA operation against Taiwan would occur without US involvement though? Sure. Much more straight forward.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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What happens next will have many lessons for overall Chinese strategy on Taiwan.
There's been a lot of speculation in Western media about the supposed "lessons" China's learning from the Ukraine conflict. "Lessons" about America's resolve regarding Taiwan, how China can only be deterred by a president from the party the news channel favours, how presidents from the other party are weak, the usual blather.

Here's an actual lesson China should learn: How from the very first instant of this drama, everybody categorically ruled out armed conflict with Russia. No "strategic ambiguity" whatsoever about what America would do. There is only perfect strategic clarity about what it would do: nothing.

Why is that, I wonder? Is the force Russia has arrayed across from Ukraine the mightiest the world has ever seen? Hardly. Is it because of the wealth and dynamism of Russia's economy? No disrespect to a country I like but that's not it, either. The reason is the definition of obvious: Russia's nuclear arsenal.

The lesson I draw and hope China's leadership likewise draws is that Russia gets the respect it does for a single reason: it has a superpower's nuclear arsenal. If China wants the respect due a superpower, it gets a superpower's arsenal. Period. Scratch the surface of any so-called analyst who babbles on American media and you will find stark terror at Russia's arsenal. Every single American knows intuitively that war with Russia is suicidal. Even as the dementia eats away whatever's left of Biden's brain, a single thought shines brightly in the darkness of his mind:

I won't make any bones about my views here - I want that fear. There's only one number of nuclear warheads China should have: parity. Whether parity comes at 6,000 warheads, 60,000 or 600,000 is a footnote.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
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Additionally, I think if the US does intervene, then it is not reasonable and not prudent to assume that the US will simply give up if China manages to successfully invade Taiwan (like extracting a surrender from whatever form of govt is left on the island) even if China managed to do so in a relatively quick manner.
/thread.


I am very much okay with leaving a US-China conflict arising from a Taiwan contingency on the backburner.
There is no reason why any discussion about Taiwan should exclude the US. If not for the US, China would have attacked Taiwan a long time ago.

That we are in 2022 and still talking about the Taiwan issue, it only means that all these discussions should be first and foremost be based on the very real possibility (if not certainty, for the next 10 years at least) that the US would get involved.

These threads should be clearly named to show that the PLA would fight ROC and US militaries at the same time. Anything less is wishful thinking at this point, or simply as an academic discussion which clearly has no basis on the realities on the ground.
 

Blitzo

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/thread.



There is no reason why any discussion about Taiwan should exclude the US. If not for the US, China would have attacked Taiwan a long time ago.

That we are in 2022 and still talking about the Taiwan issue, it only means that all these discussions should be first and foremost be based on the very real possibility (if not certainty, for the next 10 years at least) that the US would get involved.

These threads should be clearly named to show that the PLA would fight ROC and US militaries at the same time. Anything less is wishful thinking at this point, or simply as an academic discussion which clearly has no basis on the realities on the ground.

The Taiwan issue is of course intrinsically linked with the US.

But, Tphuang is right in that a discussion about Taiwan can be very much localized to its own parameters, and that talking about a conflict with the US is a whole much bigger and more complex kettle of fish and multiple magnitudes more complex.
Any division between the two in terms of discussion would be just for practical purposes than anything.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the only conclusion is that there's no point in even talking about conventional forces, since it is inevitable that a Taiwan scenario will escalate into attritional war, which is actually total war. And if that is the case then it's best to just declare that and let it be known that the end result is MAD.

So the only real thing to watch for is the PLARF and PLASSF. In that case those 300 new silos in Inner Mongolia are 10000x more important for Taiwan than even 100 LHDs and 1000 J-20s.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the only conclusion is that there's no point in even talking about conventional forces, since it is inevitable that a Taiwan scenario will escalate into attritional war, which is actually total war. And if that is the case then it's best to just declare that and let it be known that the end result is MAD.

So the only real thing to watch for is the PLARF and PLASSF. In that case those 300 new silos in Inner Mongolia are 10000x more important for Taiwan than even 100 LHDs and 1000 J-20s.
+1. Without extra nuclear weapons all these discussions are meaningless

As another member said before, if China has anything to learn from Ukraine, nuclear weapons work when you deal with the West, and that the more you have, the better.
 
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