PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

Tomboy

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No he made some interesting observations I thought. Even broken clock right twice a day, and so on.
An interesting point that he pointed out was that the gun on this tank is as long as the ZPT-98, meaning this gun would have a length of L/60 which would make this the longest land-based gun(excluding small caliber autocannons) in terms of caliber in active service.
 
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gongolongo

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It is not about having a better tank than adverary, it is about the value of tank itself. It will not matter whose tank is better if they all get destroyed by drones easily.

The new tank should be designed to reflect new nature of warfare, where drones are ever present. I am not a fan of the new tank. It is a major technological advance, but it feels outdated, as if someone in 2010 dream up a new tank. Entire design is built around sensors, APS against ATGM proliferation. And indeed, ATGM was what every one was worried about in 2010. But Ukraine taught us drone is by far the biggest threat not ATGM, and I am not seeing new design to protect it.

I am being very realistic here. How good is your tank if some random ISIS can neutralize it? This is the kind of question we must ask.

What use is a new expensive tank if it is as survivable as a ZTZ-96A? Perhaps you would say the tank will be protected by EW and various anti-drone system. I am not convinced. EW is expensive along with various shortcoming, and does not protect against fibre optic drones. The current anti-drone is unproven in realistic battlefield, and is itself vulnerable to artillery and direct gun fire. We cannot expect tanks to perform its job if it is as vulnerable to the thin skinned vehicles around it. Realistically there is no satisfactory solution to kill drones while remaining protected against various other threats. Meanwhile drones can easily improve, while anti-drone measures are order of magnitude more expensive and hard to keep up. Things are not really looking good for traditional tank designs.

In general the more complex the solution is, the more holes it can poke. Having a complex series of special vehicle is extremely expensive, unreliable for such a cheap, simple threat. So I think ultimately the solution to drones must be very affordable, and simple enough to not have anti synergy with task of tank: a rugged assault platform operating in high threat environment. An expensive fleet of anti drone system will not survive. I think ultimately we will return to simple solutions like 'cope cage'.

We see Russia was able to convert T-72 into very survivable platforms with heavy amount of cage armor. But this kind of design has its own problems. The new tank design I am hoping for is to incorporate comprehensive anti-drone armor while remain unimpeded by it, and still able to perform its traditional roles. I am not sure if these armor is compatible with APS system new tank is built around. It may just be useless once it carry anti drone armor.

Drone protection is central to design of every military vehicle, and every feature must work around it. Until new tank design reflect it, I expect it remain a placeholder at best, sidegrade at worst. The improvements like better propulsion system is theoritical at best.
Doesn't this thing have APS that can shoot upwards? And engage drones?
 

bsdnf

Junior Member
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A claim in the comments section, I guess it means adjacent rounds burst at slightly different timings.

View attachment 159572
Fuze principle is the same, where the data is received can be adjusted according to the needs. Muzzle programming will be more accurate because it will not be affected by factors such as initial velocity and charge temperature, but it is obviously not suitable for 625.


View attachment 159569View attachment 159570
 

gongolongo

Junior Member
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Exactly that's why I wonder if the APS can aim straight up an hit grenades cause I don't see radar at the top of the turret incase a drone is direct at the top of the tank and can it shoot the fpv drone
It should have enough angle from the side radar panels to see and predict it as it's incoming I think. I do think the ommission of the upward radar is odd considering the if has upward facing radar. It's still possible it can intercept directly upwards but maybe different methods. I doubt they'd make this tank not be able to intercept bombs being dropped on it by UAVs when they clearly have been able to accomplish it on other vehicles.
 

peijunfei

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Yankee specifically said this on his livestream, you could listen to it yourself. It's now available for replay but you have to pay like 40 RMB, which is like 4 quid.
I did, 观察者网洋基我看的还少么, so, Ionly believe what I see, Yankee said something wrong before, it is very common...观察者网洋基is not some kind of god knowing everything.....
 

Tanker_MG

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A flying drone is more versatile that one thinks. If you've seen the video of a Ukrainian FPV drone going after two Russian soldiers on foot, the drone is zipping around the soldiers like a fly who are trying to get away from it making contact while firing their assault rifles at the drone. They completely miss hitting the drone. It was only after one of the soldiers goes empty on his weapon, he throws his assault rifle at the drone hitting it and it explodes.

I read that all the MBTs that Western countries gave to Ukraine are all destroyed from these drones. You don't need the velocity of a tank round to at least disable a tank which is basically a dead tank. Look at all those videos of Hamas soldiers sneaking up to Israeli tanks and planting charges. I wonder how effective it would be having a wheeled quadruped robot roll up and plant an explosive. they're going to be hard to spot and soldiers are not going to be outside to spot them afraid of FPV drones going after
I think drawing lessons out of Ukraine is going to drive wrong conclusions. Not all Western MBT s MBTs given to Ukraine are destroyed by Drones/sUAS and a lot of those videos are tanks that are already abandoned. There are very few videos of Hamas sneaking up on Israeli tanks (although when they do and have spectacular success it is all over the internet and proponents are saying tanks are dead!). That specific evet was poor discipline by that unit.
The point is that drones in Ukraine are very successful due to the shear numbers and they are basically filling it for Artillery. There is no maneuver going on and it is a static fight, much like WW1 trench warfare. The PLA has artillery and most defense tanks believe they are taken into account the lessons in Ukraine is to have a large magazine of artillery shells and rockets in the next conflict.
Yes, there will be drones on the next battlefield, but have a requirement in a future/next gen MBT as the primary purpose of defense ignores that the MBT works as part of a combined arms team.
This new tank appears to have adjusted its defense Onion (US terms of defense or protection ring) of protection for its APS, smoke dischargers and potentially it's RWS.

On drones, ask yourself, how many drones will be used in maneuver warfare? In offensive actions by units moving to contact? Drones in recce, yes. To attack with a FPV equipped shape charge? No that answer is Artillery. The defender may use drones to carry out attacks, but they may use artillery more and then attack what is left with drones. Drones are just another form of attack vector.

Can we get back to looking at this new MBT (ZTZ201)? and away form Drone centric comments in this thread (PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank)?

On drones and the effects of using Ukraine as the model of the next conflict I might add that you may want to listen to and read this:
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Chieftain video
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Ryan McBeth
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Raison D'tere

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This new tank appears to have adjusted its defense Onion (US terms of defense or protection ring) of protection for its APS, smoke dischargers and potentially it's RWS.
What do you mean by adjusted, as in 'compensation for' perhaps?

Since from what I see, this new tank has much better protection compared to the ztz99a, especially for the crew, even with disregarding the APS system that then further enhances it's defenses.

Speaking of armor specifically, ERA attachments line the entirety of the side hull and the lower front plate to the driver's capsule seems just as thick as the turret cheeks of the 99a, possibly being a mix of composite and spaced, which is more than plentiful. The upper front plate is sloped steeply and there might be some composites or at least homologous. Moreover, ERA could be strapped in those places if needed, and another armor brick could be added to the lfp from what we saw of the prototypes.

As for the turret itself, most likely its unmanned anyways so the lack of armor there would be a great tradeoff for weight and mobility. If it ever gets damaged and somehow the APS fails or rans out, they just have to replace it with a new one on the same hull.
 

peijunfei

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The new aps is not the gl6 at least from looks alone. The old gl6 launchers are limited in their launch angles to about 60 degrees elevation, which is sufficient for most scenarios but not for all. And yes, there is footage of gl6 against drones released I believe.
As my solid inside source comfirmed, they are indeed the GL-6 APS. The whole APS system includrd not only the lunchers but also the rador system. All the radars are identical to the displayed ones in Zhuhai on various vehicles like VT4A1. Lucher tube also indentical I cannot tell you the source but they compared on hand it is the same thing, just with different amount and new designed support rack
 
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