PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

Atomicfrog

Major
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In what configuration?

Typically in modern civilian turbofan engines, you can achieve about a 15% improvement in fuel consumption from 1 generation to the next.

F-22 has a combat radius of 460 miles with just internal fuel according to this airforcemag article. Maybe it will be a little more if it flies all subsonic.
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F-35A has a combat radius of about 1100 km according to online sources, but I'd imagine that's in an A2A profile.

I think it would actually be quite impressive if J-20 can achieve 1500 km with purely internal fuel. It'd probably have to be flying high subsonic and carrying just its standard AAMs.

I think comfortably achieving 1500 km combat radius with more than just A2A missiles is probably a pretty good goal for 6th gen aircraft. Maybe they can hit 1800 km with just A2a missiles.
Canard configuration with all horizontal surface providing lift produce less drag than a tailed fighter with the tail counterbalancing the heavier front. J-20 have also the advantage of more compact electronics than the F-22. That volume can be replaced by fuel.

Nautic miles and miles are not the same thing. 460 is for nautic miles so it's 530 miles or 830 km without external fuel tanks.
 

tphuang

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Canard configuration with all horizontal surface providing lift produce less drag than a tailed fighter with the tail counterbalancing the heavier front. J-20 have also the advantage of more compact electronics than the F-22. That volume can be replaced by fuel.

Nautic miles and miles are not the same thing. 460 is for nautic miles so it's 530 miles or 830 km without external fuel tanks.
I am simply quoting what's in that pdf file.

It says "combat radius 470 mi". I'm not using that to infer the combat radius of J-20.
 

Totoro

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Depends on how large those 6th gen fighters are going to be. If USAF's fighter and its unmanned posse are indeed going to be very large, then I wouldn't be surprised if 2000+ km combat radii are part of the requirement.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Some additional thoughts on "6th generation". Not abt DEW and incredible [insert name here], but more closely adjusted to the future OoB.
(1)Major air superiority platform in PLAAF is very fresh (late 2010s fighter - abt as old as F-35), and at least as of right now there is still no indication it will be completely and utterly outshadowed by the US 2020s Air superiority platform(NGAD). It may be, US will try to go for it - but it may not necessarily be achievable. At least not on the first attempt. Furthermore, it's also worth pointing out that a complete "dreadnought moment" won't just kill J-20 and Su-57, it will do the same with the F-35. Which...won't be nice for the US and friends, to put it mildly.
So while studies on replacing dedicated air superiority platform are probably already there - I'd like to suggest two other topics.

(2)How a flanker replacement(~ early 2030s?) should be like.
Flankers are air superiority/interceptors(J-20 covers that), but flankers are also heavy multirole, heavy payload carriers, and carrier-borne fighters(J-XY doesn't really cover that).
J-11/15/16 family went or is going through a major mid-age production milestone right now(J-16(D)+J-15B/D) - but...it's a mid-age milestone, flanker is a 1980s fighter(=1970s concept) in the end.
=
point is: for the next heavy manned Chinese fighter(or possibly two of them, more or less closely related) we probably shall look into USN NGAD direction - it shares many of the same design highlights. Or, speaking of the 2010 generation of fighters, Su-57.

(3)How a J-10 replacement should be like(~early-mid 2030s?).
Same situation as with flanker (went through a major mid-production redesign a few years ago) - but there is a pretty obvious replacement design, which may be ready within a few years(J-31/J-XY).
The question is as follows in this case - at least from that we can see, J-31/XY still largely belongs to the same batch of aircraft F-35/J-20/Su-57/J-XY belong to(with initial prototype taking first flight >10 years ago, in the end it's a latecomer); furthermore, it is twin-engined, and China intends to have a powerful enough single-engine solution within a few years.
So, point #2 is the same: the whole topic is mostly about large&long-range...which are very important, but those aren't really defining qualities of the generation, fighters could be large&long range(comparatively, ofc) since WW1.
But the question thus is more like "what a single-engined optionally-piloted 6th(5.5?) gen fighter shall look like - and whether it is needed in the first place"?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Was listening to Shilao's talk on naval aviation again. They commented on J35 after talking about the latest photo. They said that J35 really has a lot of differences with F-35. F-35 is a lot bulkier because it's expected to carry 2000 lb internally to perform strike roles. The latest photo reminds them more of F-22 or YF-23. J-35 chases better supersonic performance and require greater weight reduction. Basically, J-35 is an air superiority fighter rather than a multi-role fighter.

They also commented on J-15s. They said that although it can be folded to take up small real estate, it requires multiple folds (wing, tail, pitot tube). And that makes things more complicated operationally. It's hard to load large missiles on the outer hard points when folded.
And that there is the fundamental problem with the F35 programme.

It was a programme conceived at a time when the idea of US air dominance being challenged was simply inconceivable to US planners and leaders. Thus the F35 was designed to maximise the benefit of air dominance without much in the way of thought or investment on how that air dominance was to be first achieved. Since that was basically taken as given, with stealth alone deemed sufficient as they were never really supposed to face off against enemy 5th gens. Not before US 6th gens shows up to do the heavy lifting in any case.

The J35 would have had countering F35s and other 5th gens as a central design requirement. Hence its focus on speed and agility over carrying capacity. It also has an oversized nose, like all modern Chinese fighters, so should carry a noticeably bigger radar.

It would be an interesting match up between J35 and F35, where you are pitching better raw aerodynamic performance, radar and (probably) all aspect stealth against better internal weapons load and range/endurance and airframe numbers.

One thing I would watch out for on the J35 is J20 like swing arm launchers for the mean weapons bay. This could easily be made modular and detachable, so the main thing to look out for would be cut-outs in the main weapons bay doors near the centreline where they could mount such swing arms.

Given that countering enemy 5th gens would be a primary design requirement for the J35, and the nature of stealth significantly reducing detection and engagement ranges as well as the performances of radar guided AAMs, it’s very likely that stealth v stealth fights will end up in WVR. In which case not having IRAAMs will prove to be a massive handicap and limitation while having it could provide a near unassailable advantage against an opponent down to guns only.

The obvious solution has already been developed by the J20 with its side bay swing arms. Adding a pair of such arms on both sides of the central dividing bulkhead would allow you to swing at least one missile down into the airstream ready for immediate launch. Then you can minimally open the mean weapons bay to swop in the empty arm for the other with a fresh missile in a matter of seconds.

If you want to be able to externally mount both missiles, you need a fairly thick central divider, which will needlessly limit your mean weapons bay, so don’t feel worth it as how often realistically would you need to launch two IRAAMs at basically the same time? So I think limiting it to a single IRAAM at a time is an acceptable compromise, and would still give you overwhelming advantage in WVR against an F35 with only guns.

In theory, you can also design a gun pod to fit on such a swing arm. So you go in with one IRAAM and a gun pod for backup so you don’t need an internal gun baked into the design.
 

tphuang

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And that there is the fundamental problem with the F35 programme.

It was a programme conceived at a time when the idea of US air dominance being challenged was simply inconceivable to US planners and leaders. Thus the F35 was designed to maximise the benefit of air dominance without much in the way of thought or investment on how that air dominance was to be first achieved. Since that was basically taken as given, with stealth alone deemed sufficient as they were never really supposed to face off against enemy 5th gens. Not before US 6th gens shows up to do the heavy lifting in any case.

The J35 would have had countering F35s and other 5th gens as a central design requirement. Hence its focus on speed and agility over carrying capacity. It also has an oversized nose, like all modern Chinese fighters, so should carry a noticeably bigger radar.

It would be an interesting match up between J35 and F35, where you are pitching better raw aerodynamic performance, radar and (probably) all aspect stealth against better internal weapons load and range/endurance and airframe numbers.

One thing I would watch out for on the J35 is J20 like swing arm launchers for the mean weapons bay. This could easily be made modular and detachable, so the main thing to look out for would be cut-outs in the main weapons bay doors near the centreline where they could mount such swing arms.

Given that countering enemy 5th gens would be a primary design requirement for the J35, and the nature of stealth significantly reducing detection and engagement ranges as well as the performances of radar guided AAMs, it’s very likely that stealth v stealth fights will end up in WVR. In which case not having IRAAMs will prove to be a massive handicap and limitation while having it could provide a near unassailable advantage against an opponent down to guns only.

The obvious solution has already been developed by the J20 with its side bay swing arms. Adding a pair of such arms on both sides of the central dividing bulkhead would allow you to swing at least one missile down into the airstream ready for immediate launch. Then you can minimally open the mean weapons bay to swop in the empty arm for the other with a fresh missile in a matter of seconds.

If you want to be able to externally mount both missiles, you need a fairly thick central divider, which will needlessly limit your mean weapons bay, so don’t feel worth it as how often realistically would you need to launch two IRAAMs at basically the same time? So I think limiting it to a single IRAAM at a time is an acceptable compromise, and would still give you overwhelming advantage in WVR against an F35 with only guns.

In theory, you can also design a gun pod to fit on such a swing arm. So you go in with one IRAAM and a gun pod for backup so you don’t need an internal gun baked into the design.
Hmm, I don't think you put pl15s in j35s if you anticipate launching them from within 20km. After all, pl10 should be better in wvr role than pl15.

With the early warning assets china has around first island chain like the long range anti stealth radar and kj500, they are pretty comfortable that they can cue up f35s before their own 5th gen gets detected. I think a lot of scenarios will be well outside of 30 km. That imo is why china wants to get those aew drones with uhf radar into service. Extend the range where they can detect f35s. Tag @Patchwork_Chimera for his thoughts.

I think the bigger issue for usn is that most of their naval air wing will be super hornets due to decisions made during gwot. In most cases, plan carrier with catapult will likely have more 5th gen than usn carrier.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Hmm, I don't think you put pl15s in j35s if you anticipate launching them from within 20km. After all, pl10 should be better in wvr role than pl15.
How do you plan on launching PL10s from J35s during a dogfight?
With the early warning assets china has around first island chain like the long range anti stealth radar and kj500, they are pretty comfortable that they can cue up f35s before their own 5th gen gets detected. I think a lot of scenarios will be well outside of 30 km. That imo is why china wants to get those aew drones with uhf radar into service. Extend the range where they can detect f35s. Tag @Patchwork_Chimera for his thoughts.

But we are talking about J35s and not J20s. If China wants to push out beyond the 1st island chain, than it is going to loose a lot of its home field advantages.

Also, I’m hesitant on banking on long range anti stealth radar and KJ500 working as well during wartime with heavy EW use and jamming as they did during peacetime with clear signals and spectrums. Not to mention potential cruise missile spam by the US against Chinese long range early warning radar sites.

Banking on being able to detect and engage F35s at extended ranges just smacks of making exactly the same mistakes as the US did in assuming their F35s will always get the first (and only) BVR shot off in air combat.

All of that investment and future developments like radar drones will certainly help to improve the changes of early detection and resilience and redundancy of the network, but I think winning dogfights is still a core mission requirement for the J35, as evidenced by the aerodynamic choices made in its design choices. Those are the big fixed costs. Next to that, having a couple cut-outs in the main weapons bay and the few million at most needed to adapt the J20 swing arm is less than pocket change.

I think the bigger issue for usn is that most of their naval air wing will be super hornets due to decisions made during gwot. In most cases, plan carrier with catapult will likely have more 5th gen than usn carrier.

True, but in the short to medium term, the USN can expect to have way more carriers with F35s than the PLAN will have carriers with J35s, so the balance of numbers should stay with the USN overall for quiet some time. That means a 1-1 exchange rate between J35s and F35s isn’t good enough for the PLAN.
 

Blitzo

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And that there is the fundamental problem with the F35 programme.

It was a programme conceived at a time when the idea of US air dominance being challenged was simply inconceivable to US planners and leaders. Thus the F35 was designed to maximise the benefit of air dominance without much in the way of thought or investment on how that air dominance was to be first achieved. Since that was basically taken as given, with stealth alone deemed sufficient as they were never really supposed to face off against enemy 5th gens. Not before US 6th gens shows up to do the heavy lifting in any case.

The J35 would have had countering F35s and other 5th gens as a central design requirement. Hence its focus on speed and agility over carrying capacity. It also has an oversized nose, like all modern Chinese fighters, so should carry a noticeably bigger radar.

It would be an interesting match up between J35 and F35, where you are pitching better raw aerodynamic performance, radar and (probably) all aspect stealth against better internal weapons load and range/endurance and airframe numbers.

One thing I would watch out for on the J35 is J20 like swing arm launchers for the mean weapons bay. This could easily be made modular and detachable, so the main thing to look out for would be cut-outs in the main weapons bay doors near the centreline where they could mount such swing arms.

Given that countering enemy 5th gens would be a primary design requirement for the J35, and the nature of stealth significantly reducing detection and engagement ranges as well as the performances of radar guided AAMs, it’s very likely that stealth v stealth fights will end up in WVR. In which case not having IRAAMs will prove to be a massive handicap and limitation while having it could provide a near unassailable advantage against an opponent down to guns only.

The obvious solution has already been developed by the J20 with its side bay swing arms. Adding a pair of such arms on both sides of the central dividing bulkhead would allow you to swing at least one missile down into the airstream ready for immediate launch. Then you can minimally open the mean weapons bay to swop in the empty arm for the other with a fresh missile in a matter of seconds.

If you want to be able to externally mount both missiles, you need a fairly thick central divider, which will needlessly limit your mean weapons bay, so don’t feel worth it as how often realistically would you need to launch two IRAAMs at basically the same time? So I think limiting it to a single IRAAM at a time is an acceptable compromise, and would still give you overwhelming advantage in WVR against an F35 with only guns.

In theory, you can also design a gun pod to fit on such a swing arm. So you go in with one IRAAM and a gun pod for backup so you don’t need an internal gun baked into the design.


I think you are going the wrong direction with your vision for 5th gen vs 5th gen (or high tech air power vs high tech air power).

Equipping 5th gen aircraft with SRAAMs and cannons with the aim to defeat opfor 5th gen aircraft in the WVR domain is equipping them with last ditch self defense weapons with the expectation that each side's aircraft will only be able to stumble upon each other at WVR and be unable to engage each other at BVR ranges, thus have to resort to closer range engagements.


I think the complete opposite will be the case -- that as high tech air forces advance and seek to counter opposing 5th gen and above fighters, they will aim to further advance their BVR capabilities. This will be done through a combination of things:
- Continuing to develop and advance sensors and networking aboard fighter aircraft
- Pursuit of friendly offboard sensing capability -- most prominently this is seen in MUMT, where substantial offboard A2A UAV capability will be in the form of forward deployable, attritible sensor nodes that are networked with manned fighter aircraft and friendly weapons A2A UCAV platforms.
- Development of more sophisticated BVR weapons, especially in terms of guidance. This is not only in the form of terminal guidance (which is likely to be multi-modal including advanced AESA and also ImIR) but also more agile, dynamic and robust midcourse guidance as well.
- Also, simply being able to "outmass" the enemy in terms of the number of airborne, VLO, sensor and weapons platforms you have in the aerial battlespace at any one time.
- and finally, your generic ECM, ECCM capabilities and so on.



.... In other words, the way that future aerial warfare between opposing forces that are VLO and advanced, will be one where each side tries to achieve networking superiority over each other qualitatively and quantitatively, where the side with superior system of system of systems will win.


Pursuing WVR weapons and cannons is not an adequate counter for the way that future aerial warfare will go. At best, they can be maintained as a very last line, last ditch self defense capability.

But the most high yield, efficient gains in capability in a VLO vs VLO scenario, will be advances in networking, sensors and BVR capabilities.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I think you are going the wrong direction with your vision for 5th gen vs 5th gen (or high tech air power vs high tech air power).

Equipping 5th gen aircraft with SRAAMs and cannons with the aim to defeat opfor 5th gen aircraft in the WVR domain is equipping them with last ditch self defense weapons with the expectation that each side's aircraft will only be able to stumble upon each other at WVR and be unable to engage each other at BVR ranges, thus have to resort to closer range engagements.


I think the complete opposite will be the case -- that as high tech air forces advance and seek to counter opposing 5th gen and above fighters, they will aim to further advance their BVR capabilities. This will be done through a combination of things:
- Continuing to develop and advance sensors and networking aboard fighter aircraft
- Pursuit of friendly offboard sensing capability -- most prominently this is seen in MUMT, where substantial offboard A2A UAV capability will be in the form of forward deployable, attritible sensor nodes that are networked with manned fighter aircraft and friendly weapons A2A UCAV platforms.
- Development of more sophisticated BVR weapons, especially in terms of guidance. This is not only in the form of terminal guidance (which is likely to be multi-modal including advanced AESA and also ImIR) but also more agile, dynamic and robust midcourse guidance as well.
- Also, simply being able to "outmass" the enemy in terms of the number of airborne, VLO, sensor and weapons platforms you have in the aerial battlespace at any one time.
- and finally, your generic ECM, ECCM capabilities and so on.



.... In other words, the way that future aerial warfare between opposing forces that are VLO and advanced, will be one where each side tries to achieve networking superiority over each other qualitatively and quantitatively, where the side with superior system of system of systems will win.


Pursuing WVR weapons and cannons is not an adequate counter for the way that future aerial warfare will go. At best, they can be maintained as a very last line, last ditch self defense capability.

But the most high yield, efficient gains in capability in a VLO vs VLO scenario, will be advances in networking, sensors and BVR capabilities.
Network centric warfare is the direction things are going but you need capabilities for when network dependencies breakdown too.
 
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