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Blitzo

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*Cough* South China Sea *cough*

The South China Sea could be a useful place for Type 22s, but it somewhat depends on who they are fighting against.

If the enemy has the ability to contest the air or even secure the air, then the Type 22s would be at much higher risk.
Also, the South China Sea as a whole is a much larger expanse of ocean than say, just being a couple of miles off the Fujian coast in the Taiwan strait. Depending on who and where you are fighting, the Type 22s may have to go out fairly far from base to operate.


If the goal is to maximize the effectiveness of the Type 22s, while also minimizing the risk of losing them, and with minimal additional modifications or upgrades, I think operating as seaborne, mobile, networked, relatively difficult to target, AShM/medium range LACM batteries in a Taiwan conflict, loitering off the coast of Fujian, would be the best way of conducting themselves.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The South China Sea could be a useful place for Type 22s, but it somewhat depends on who they are fighting against.

If the enemy has the ability to contest the air or even secure the air, then the Type 22s would be at much higher risk.
Also, the South China Sea as a whole is a much larger expanse of ocean than say, just being a couple of miles off the Fujian coast in the Taiwan strait. Depending on who and where you are fighting, the Type 22s may have to go out fairly far from base to operate.


If the goal is to maximize the effectiveness of the Type 22s, while also minimizing the risk of losing them, and with minimal additional modifications or upgrades, I think operating as seaborne, mobile, networked, relatively difficult to target, AShM/medium range LACM batteries in a Taiwan conflict, loitering off the coast of Fujian, would be the best way of conducting themselves.

Distance and force concentration works both ways.

These are LO missile boats. Their whole point is to be hard to find while having a very big and long stick that makes it hard to ignore them. Opfor needs to devote significant resources to guard against them or try to hunt them down or leave themselves very vulnerable to being sucker punched by them. In that sense, the work most like subs.

Sure, you can park them just off the Fujian coast and just spam missiles from them, but in that case, just how practically different are they from shore based missile batteries or even high end MRLSs exactly?

If the PLA is that short on missiles, they have far bigger problems than finding a role for the 022.

Also, the Fujian coast is probably going to be one of the most intensely surveillanced areas on earth in the event of a war. LO isn’t magic and generally sticking LO assets where the enemy will focus their sensors is not the best way to make the best use of your LO assets.

In the SCS, the vast open waters and many many islands are basically ideal hunting grounds of 022s. Especially with China’s SCS island bases for home ports and the massive sensor networks China is building there for ISR and off-board targeting without needing much more in the way of support for them to be effective.

With LO and islands to hide behind, it will be a hard task for any naval force to try and get past just the 022 without risking getting hit hard. That means China doesn’t need to keep as much of its navy down in the SCS to safeguard its holdings there from potential opportunistic attacks by Australian or European naval expeditionary forces. And could also act as a formidable barrier against US naval reinforcements trying to move in from the Indian Ocean.
 

weig2000

Captain
I don't really agree with this -- I think the Type 22s were always designed to stay relatively far away from their opposing ships (100km+ at least) and would fire their AShMs at those ranges ideally supported by offboard ISR.

Their small signature and speed and operating in the littorals, in addition to using AShMs with 180km range (when they first entered service) would be their primary method of maximizing survivability while also being able to inflict casualties on the enemy.

As newer YJ-83 variants have entered service with steadily increasing range, the utility of the Type 22s in that mission role has only expanded, especially as more modern YJ-83 variants also possess land attack capability.

Keep in mind Type 22 was designed 15-20 years ago and with PLAAF/PLAN's overall capabilities including ISR at the time in mind.

But we can agree to disagree here.

I think our views differ as to what the "original" role of the Type 22s were, which is why we disagree here.

I view the Type 22s as being designed from the outset as a FAC intended to engage enemy ships at over 100km away relying on offboard ISR, so in a Taiwan contingency they would be fulfilling the same role as they were designed for -- except of course the YJ-83 variants today have longer range with some land attack capability, and the PLA has much more and varied anti shipping platforms and ISR capabilities now so the Type 22s are really there just to add additional "rofl firepower" to the PLA side at relatively low risk and low cost, with minimal modifications needed.


Let's say the PLA has 8 Type 22s off the coast of Fujian in the conflict. That's basically 64 on call additional AShMs or medium range LACMs they can call upon to strike targets at sea or on the west coast of Taiwan island, at short notice.

Now, it seems to me what you're asking is how does the opportunity cost of it pan out -- i.e. is the money spent on supporting the Type 22 fleet in peacetime and operating them in wartime, better spent elsewhere?
And imo we can't really answer that without knowing what its various costs and manpower demands actually are.

The more interesting question is that what role Type 22 can play in today's environment. You've suggested some roles, aided by the improved ISR and other capabilities of PLAAF/PLAN. The reason we're having this discussion is because we're seeing they've brought out these boats, indicating they have some roles in mind for these ships. I'm doubtful, but am overall open-minded to hear some of the possibilities.
 

tphuang

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Keep in mind Type 22 was designed 15-20 years ago and with PLAAF/PLAN's overall capabilities including ISR at the time in mind.

But we can agree to disagree here.



The more interesting question is that what role Type 22 can play in today's environment. You've suggested some roles, aided by the improved ISR and other capabilities of PLAAF/PLAN. The reason we're having this discussion is because we're seeing they've brought out these boats, indicating they have some roles in mind for these ships. I'm doubtful, but am overall open-minded to hear some of the possibilities.
I was here 15 years ago when it was first appearing. I can assure you that what @Blitzo and I are telling is what the prevailing expectations at the time. Remember, before YJ-12 and YJ-18 existed, most PLAN watchers thought mass saturation attack from YJ-83s was the biggest threat to US carrier groups.
 

Blitzo

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To be a truly networked asset, I imagine the 022 would need comms and datalink upgrades. Does it have enough space and power generation capacity for that?

It was designed from the outset to be able to receive targeting data from offboard ISR, so it shouldn't need any upgrades beyond perhaps just moving to new networking standards.
This isn't a AAW warship needing to do CeC with a dozen other APAR equipped warships and dozens of friendly fighter aircraft and multiple fixed wing AEW&Cs where they all need to be able to see what the other one sees in the entire battlespace and to be able to collectively engage and determine targets as a group.

This is a FAC which only needs to be able to receive targeting data of surface targets, launch the missile, and then hand off the missile's midcourse guidance off to the offboard ISR platform afterwards. It is primitive by comparison.


Keep in mind Type 22 was designed 15-20 years ago and with PLAAF/PLAN's overall capabilities including ISR at the time in mind.

But we can agree to disagree here.

The PLAAF's and PLAN's ISR capabilities 15-20 years ago was certainly far weaker than they are now, but they still had some platforms that would have been viable against certain enemies.
Y-8Js and Y-8Xs operating in Chinese airspace looking over the Taiwan strait, with fighter escort for protection, providing ISR for packs of Type 22s, would have been a very credible threat even back then in the early 2000s.

I viewed the Type 22s from the outset as a platform intended to conduct anti-shipping missions on a OTH basis as its first means of attack.


The more interesting question is that what role Type 22 can play in today's environment. You've suggested some roles, aided by the improved ISR and other capabilities of PLAAF/PLAN. The reason we're having this discussion is because we're seeing they've brought out these boats, indicating they have some roles in mind for these ships. I'm doubtful, but am overall open-minded to hear some of the possibilities.

Well, personally I think the explanation of "being a mobile missile launch platform" is a pretty sensible role...
I also am doubtful as to just how much the Type 22s were properly "mothballed" in the past.
 
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Blitzo

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Distance and force concentration works both ways.

These are LO missile boats. Their whole point is to be hard to find while having a very big and long stick that makes it hard to ignore them. Opfor needs to devote significant resources to guard against them or try to hunt them down or leave themselves very vulnerable to being sucker punched by them. In that sense, the work most like subs.

Sure, you can park them just off the Fujian coast and just spam missiles from them, but in that case, just how practically different are they from shore based missile batteries or even high end MRLSs exactly?

Yes, they're not that different from shore based missile batteries or high end MLRS, which is the point.

These are boats which have relatively low endurance, limited seakeeping, and very vulnerable to enemy airpower if you cannot guarantee air superiority. Operating as mobile off shore missile batteries is probably the lowest risk, highest reward role for them.
Certainly, I think a Taiwan contingency operating in that manner would be the most sensible mission for the Type 22s.


If the PLA is that short on missiles, they have far bigger problems than finding a role for the 022.

Also, the Fujian coast is probably going to be one of the most intensely surveillanced areas on earth in the event of a war. LO isn’t magic and generally sticking LO assets where the enemy will focus their sensors is not the best way to make the best use of your LO assets.

In a Taiwan conflict, the balance of ISR, EW, CAP and overall system of systems will be very heavily in the PLA's favour, and having the Type 22s operate only in a highly littoral environment covered by friendly fixed wing airpower and ground based IADS, would make them very very difficult to target by the opfor.



In the SCS, the vast open waters and many many islands are basically ideal hunting grounds of 022s. Especially with China’s SCS island bases for home ports and the massive sensor networks China is building there for ISR and off-board targeting without needing much more in the way of support for them to be effective.

With LO and islands to hide behind, it will be a hard task for any naval force to try and get past just the 022 without risking getting hit hard. That means China doesn’t need to keep as much of its navy down in the SCS to safeguard its holdings there from potential opportunistic attacks by Australian or European naval expeditionary forces. And could also act as a formidable barrier against US naval reinforcements trying to move in from the Indian Ocean.

I personally view the SCS environment as far more dangerous for the Type 22s to operate in compared to say, the Taiwan strait.

Operating in areas with more open water is not good for FACs as they are more easily detectable by airpower than operating in a highly littoral environment, and also because the PLA's air power and air defenses will be of far lower density in the SCS compared to the ETC off the Taiwan strait.
The greater expanses of water of the SCS also means that the limited sea keeping and endurance of the Type 22s would make their issues felt.

That said, if the conflict is of such an intensity that the SCS theater needs buffing up with anything they can scrounge up, then I suppose the Type 22s would still be somewhat useful there. But I do not consider Type 22s operating in the SCS to be the most survivable way of operating them in event of conflict.

The original question was basically asking what would be a suitable role for the Type 22s in the modern era. I think using them as mobile floating AShM batteries in a Taiwan contingency is the best as it offers the best reward for the least risk and also the least difficulty of supporting its operation.
 

vincent

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That said, if the conflict is of such an intensity that the SCS theater needs buffing up with anything they can scrounge up, then I suppose the Type 22s would still be somewhat useful there. But I do not consider Type 22s operating in the SCS to be the most survivable way of operating them in event of conflict.

The original question was basically asking what would be a suitable role for the Type 22s in the modern era. I think using them as mobile floating AShM batteries in a Taiwan contingency is the best as it offers the best reward for the least risk and also the least difficulty of supporting its operation.
Type 22 can greatly augment Chinese picket fleets’ punch in the SCS.
 

Blitzo

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Type 22 can greatly augment Chinese picket fleets’ punch in the SCS.

If the enemy is so capable such that they need Type 22s to operate in a theater with much weaker friendly air support and weaker IADS and where the Type 22s will have to operate in a much more vulnerable position (open ocean, longer distances) -- then sure.
Naturally you'd want to throw all you can spare into the fight.

But otherwise, I would almost fear they would be a liability.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
I was here 15 years ago when it was first appearing. I can assure you that what @Blitzo and I are telling is what the prevailing expectations at the time. Remember, before YJ-12 and YJ-18 existed, most PLAN watchers thought mass saturation attack from YJ-83s was the biggest threat to US carrier groups.
Sir can it be loaded with 4 YJ-12 instead of 8 YJ-83 to make it more formidable? can the boat able to handle such heavy load?
 
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