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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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It's interesting to see they have dusted off this boat type more recently, at least in the news. Now it's difficult to imagine what role they would play in the next Taiwan crisis. These are also very narrow-purpose ships. So not sure what they have in mind for them.

Ironically, I think a Taiwan conflict would be the most useful role for them. They are designed for littoral operations against opposing ships that are in the littorals.
The geography of the theater of operations and the range of contemporary AShMs means that Type 22s operating within a dozen km of Fujian's coastline length would have full coverage of almost the entire Taiwan strait in terms of AShM coverage. If they venture out a bit, then their more modern YJ-83 variants could also provide a land attack contribution.

Of course, as far as the anti shipping and land attack mission goes, there are far more efficient platforms to do each of those.
But I think as recent history has shown, you can never have too many fires platforms, especially if they can operate in a networked and on call fashion during the periods of conflict where you need it most.
 

weig2000

Captain
Ironically, I think a Taiwan conflict would be the most useful role for them. They are designed for littoral operations against opposing ships that are in the littorals.
The geography of the theater of operations and the range of contemporary AShMs means that Type 22s operating within a dozen km of Fujian's coastline length would have full coverage of almost the entire Taiwan strait in terms of AShM coverage. If they venture out a bit, then their more modern YJ-83 variants could also provide a land attack contribution.

Of course, as far as the anti shipping and land attack mission goes, there are far more efficient platforms to do each of those.
But I think as recent history has shown, you can never have too many fires platforms, especially if they can operate in a networked and on call fashion during the periods of conflict where you need it most.

These missile boats were designed to fight a guerilla war on the sea against stronger enemy. ROC Navy is actually emulating this strategy in some way now against PLAN.

Against Taiwan's limited and weak surface combatants, there boats are a rather clumsy way to hunt and kill Taiwanese ships. They need to get closer to the enemy ships. They will need data feed to search and locate the enemy ships. This is wildly inefficient. Staying closer to Fujian's coastline, they will need targeting information from other platforms. In this case, how different are they from the land-based AShMs launchers? OK, they're a bit closer.

"A Taiwan conflict would be the most useful role for them"

Of course, because that's the role they were designed for. But now PLAN/PLAAF have much more efficient and effective platforms to get the same job done.

Maybe one way to utilize these missile boats is to convert them into unmanned ships and equip them with the right sensors and dual-directional data feed. They may be operated as swarm attack platforms. Are they worth the time and effort? Against ROC Navy? I'm not sure.
 

Blitzo

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These missile boats were designed to fight a guerilla war on the sea against stronger enemy. ROC Navy is actually emulating this strategy in some way now against PLAN.

Against Taiwan's limited and weak surface combatants, there boats are a rather clumsy way to hunt and kill Taiwanese ships. They need to get closer to the enemy ships. They will need data feed to search and locate the enemy ships. This is wildly inefficient. Staying closer to Fujian's coastline, they will need targeting information from other platforms. In this case, how different are they from the land-based AShMs launchers? OK, they're a bit closer.

Any sort of anti shipping mission against the ROCN in the Taiwan strait would rely on shooters and sensors being separated from each other.

Airborne ISR and AEW&C would be directing and cuing fires and providing midcourse guidance for shooters (loitering H-6J/Ks with YJ-12s, land based AShMs, and whatever naval surface shooters they want including Type 22s).
All of these platforms will fire their AShMs at maximum range and avoid getting into close proximity of the opposing ROCN combatants.
Type 22 of course would be the same.


"A Taiwan conflict would be the most useful role for them"

Of course, because that's the role they were designed for. But now PLAN/PLAAF have much more efficient and effective platforms to get the same job done.

Maybe one way to utilize these missile boats is to convert them into unmanned ships and equip them with the right sensors and dual-directional data feed. They may be operated as swarm attack platforms. Are they worth the time and effort? Against ROC Navy? I'm not sure.

Well yes, I did say that the PLA have more efficient anti shipping platforms now across air, land and sea.

But I do think that using Type 22s as "augmenting AShM/land attack fires" is the best use for them in a Taiwan contingency.
All they need is to continue with contemporary datalinks and to be able to use the more modern YJ-83 variants.
During peacetime they would rarely go to sea, and during wartime each boat if they go to sea would just add 8 more missiles to a fight at relatively low cost to manpower, and newer missiles also offer land attack capability beyond only anti ship capability.

Operating as a floating, mobile, relatively low signature datalinked, dedicated AShM/medium range LACM platform I think is a perfectly viable and useful role for the Type 22s in a Taiwan contingency, and it could be done with relatively low cost and limited upgrades.


Converting the Type 22s to unmanned ships would be too costly and complex for these boats that are relatively small.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Ironically, I think a Taiwan conflict would be the most useful role for them. They are designed for littoral operations against opposing ships that are in the littorals.
The geography of the theater of operations and the range of contemporary AShMs means that Type 22s operating within a dozen km of Fujian's coastline length would have full coverage of almost the entire Taiwan strait in terms of AShM coverage. If they venture out a bit, then their more modern YJ-83 variants could also provide a land attack contribution.

Of course, as far as the anti shipping and land attack mission goes, there are far more efficient platforms to do each of those.
But I think as recent history has shown, you can never have too many fires platforms, especially if they can operate in a networked and on call fashion during the periods of conflict where you need it most.
Do you think these boats could find a role as a drone killer? They may have been practicing shooting drones, gliding bombs, etc in the video.

Presumably ROC will be sending waves of US drones across the straight during a conflict.
 

GTI

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you think these boats could find a role as a drone killer? They may have been practicing shooting drones, gliding bombs, etc in the video.

Presumably ROC will be sending waves of US drones across the straight during a conflict.
I think they would make excellent missile boat killers (with some modifications to the AShM load out).

Just like how they were the asymmetric solution to the USN, now the ROCN is looking to employ similar asymmetric solutions, given PLAN’s growth and power. These would be a very handy and even overpowered solution to that
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Do you think these boats could find a role as a drone killer? They may have been practicing shooting drones, gliding bombs, etc in the video.

Presumably ROC will be sending waves of US drones across the straight during a conflict.

I had a similar idea, but actually as part of SHORADS for landing parties. There was discussion of whether it is “worth it” to arm small landing ships with CIWS, but actually Type 22 already has it. You can send them closer with the landing ships compared with 54A
 

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
The investment has already been made in these boats, running costs cannot be too high and they provide useful command experience for the future captains of major surface combatants. Whatever their no doubt limited combat capability, there are good reasons to run them on until LifeEx.
 

weig2000

Captain
Any sort of anti shipping mission against the ROCN in the Taiwan strait would rely on shooters and sensors being separated from each other.

Airborne ISR and AEW&C would be directing and cuing fires and providing midcourse guidance for shooters (loitering H-6J/Ks with YJ-12s, land based AShMs, and whatever naval surface shooters they want including Type 22s).
All of these platforms will fire their AShMs at maximum range and avoid getting into close proximity of the opposing ROCN combatants.
Type 22 of course would be the same.




Well yes, I did say that the PLA have more efficient anti shipping platforms now across air, land and sea.

But I do think that using Type 22s as "augmenting AShM/land attack fires" is the best use for them in a Taiwan contingency.
All they need is to continue with contemporary datalinks and to be able to use the more modern YJ-83 variants.
During peacetime they would rarely go to sea, and during wartime each boat if they go to sea would just add 8 more missiles to a fight at relatively low cost to manpower, and newer missiles also offer land attack capability beyond only anti ship capability.

Operating as a floating, mobile, relatively low signature datalinked, dedicated AShM/medium range LACM platform I think is a perfectly viable and useful role for the Type 22s in a Taiwan contingency, and it could be done with relatively low cost and limited upgrades.


Converting the Type 22s to unmanned ships would be too costly and complex for these boats that are relatively small.

Let me try to boil down the discussions and arguments.

What Type 22 missile boats were designed for.

They were meant to get very close to the enemy ships, shoot the missiles and run. That's why they were small, fast and numerous. The context and underlying assumptions were enemy has stronger navy and PLAN does not have air supremacy and sea control, at least there were no guarantee of them. They would be more autonomous than relying on system support such as senor and targeting information. In other words, it's more like guerilla war on the sea, something that PLAN had been very familiar with when dealing with a stronger ROCN since the '50s. It's a strategy that may work when you don't have many other better platforms.

How Type 22 missile boats would be used today.

Option A.
Adopt the same strategy that they were designed for. It should still work. But context and condition have all changed. PLAN/PLAAF now have far more efficient and effective platforms and strategy to handle the much weaker and much smaller ROCN.

Option B. Still employ these missile boats but with a different somewhat tactics. This time use them more as mobile AShMs launchers, but keep them farther away from enemy ships. They will be fed with targeting data, but much of the searching and targeting are done by other platforms (aircraft & more capable surface combatants). This will also work. This sounds like what you're suggesting, more or less. My question is if other platforms can do both the searching and targeting AND striking, in a more timely manner, why do you need to use these missile boats? It's not like ROCN has either a qualitative or numerical edge, using PLAAF and/or PLAN larger ships are just much more effective given that PLAAF and PLAN will definitely gain air and sea control over Taiwan Strat.

There is also the fundamental and underlying assumption: the next Taiwan Strait crisis, if these missile boats were deployed and used, world be the armed unification, in which case time is of essence and ROCN ships would need to be destroyed or incapacitated quickly to clear the way for landing.

All in all, I don't doubt that these missile boats can still be useful, I'm questioning if they should still play important roles if at all.

Can Type 22 missile boats be converted to play a more modern and important role?

This is not essential to the arguments. It's something I was thinking prompted by your arguments. We agree it's not worth it for the Taiwan contingency.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Registered Member
Let me try to boil down the discussions and arguments.

What Type 22 missile boats were designed for.

They were meant to get very close to the enemy ships, shoot the missiles and run. That's why they were small, fast and numerous. The context and underlying assumptions were enemy has stronger navy and PLAN does not have air supremacy and sea control, at least there were no guarantee of them. They would be more autonomous than relying on system support such as senor and targeting information. In other words, it's more like guerilla war on the sea, something that PLAN had been very familiar with when dealing with a stronger ROCN since the '50s. It's a strategy that may work when you don't have many other better platforms.

How Type 22 missile boats would be used today.

Option A.
Adopt the same strategy that they were designed for. It should still work. But context and condition have all changed. PLAN/PLAAF now have far more efficient and effective platforms and strategy to handle the much weaker and much smaller ROCN.

Option B. Still employ these missile boats but with a different somewhat tactics. This time use them more as mobile AShMs launchers, but keep them farther away from enemy ships. They will be fed with targeting data, but much of the searching and targeting are done by other platforms (aircraft & more capable surface combatants). This will also work. This sounds like what you're suggesting, more or less. My question is if other platforms can do both the searching and targeting AND striking, in a more timely manner, why do you need to use these missile boats? It's not like ROCN has either a qualitative or numerical edge, using PLAAF and/or PLAN larger ships are just much more effective given that PLAAF and PLAN will definitely gain air and sea control over Taiwan Strat.

There is also the fundamental and underlying assumption: the next Taiwan Strait crisis, if these missile boats were deployed and used, world be the armed unification, in which case time is of essence and ROCN ships would need to be destroyed or incapacitated quickly to clear the way for landing.

All in all, I don't doubt that these missile boats can still be useful, I'm questioning if they should still play important roles if at all.

Can Type 22 missile boats be converted to play a more modern and important role?

This is not essential to the arguments. It's something I was thinking prompted by your arguments. We agree it's not worth it for the Taiwan contingency.
Type 022 was always designed to rely on off board isr and fire off a bunch of missiles and then runaway. There is basically no better place to use than against rocn and against us and Japanese navy around first island chain. They provide a lot of breadth in a saturation attack and should not be underestimated.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
I have questions about its role in using guerrilla tactics in the sea. I mean the sea is open like a desert with no trees and gullies to hide. To have fifty or a hundred of them challenging a CVN fleet, wouldn't they be sitting ducks for ASMs? Is that why the PLAN has not acquired more of them, unless in the high hundreds?
 
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