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Tam

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Registered Member
All the noise isolation equipment have to be done inside the pressurized hull. In submarine world, the wider the pressurized hull is, the more space you have to install noise isolation technology. So generally speaking, if you generate the same amount of noise inside a submarine, the larger the pressurized hull is, the quieter it will be for the outside world. That's why the Akula and seawolf are huge.

When you go with double hull, you have to build a larger submarine in order to have the same space inside as a single hull. Which adds requirement to the engine, turbine generators and reduction gears to be able to move as fast. That's why you see the Russians going to single hull with Lada class and why Lada has a shorter beam than Kilo class. And why all the advanced Western subs are single hull.

For something as small as this new boat, you pretty much have to do single hull. As long as its power generation requirements are low and it can run on battery, it can probably be very quiet in littoral waters. It's definitely not going to move fast though.

Single hulls are a misnormer. In truth, even so called single hulled submarines are hybrids. Large sections of the "single hulled" submarines are in fact, double hulled to allow for wrap around ballast tanks. These areas are usually the front, the middle, and the back where in the last, the cylinder of the sub tapers into a cone that leads to the propeller. In such sections, the pressure hull has a waist to allow for the ballast tanks. In such submarines, you will see the holes form patterns around these areas.

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The external hull is also used to contain fuel and other things.


A good example of non Russian non Chinese hybrid submarine, is the Soryu and Taigei class submarines.

soryu_cutaway-1.jpg1468266751560.jpg
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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Single hulls are a misnormer. In truth, even so called single hulled submarines are hybrids. Large sections of the "single hulled" submarines are in fact, double hulled to allow for wrap around ballast tanks. These areas are usually the front, the middle, and the back where in the last, the cylinder of the sub tapers into a cone that leads to the propeller. In such sections, the pressure hull has a waist to allow for the ballast tanks. In such submarines, you will see the holes form patterns around these areas.

View attachment 82496View attachment 82497

View attachment 82498

The external hull is also used to contain fuel and other things.


A good example of non Russian non Chinese hybrid submarine, is the Soryu and Taigei class submarines.

View attachment 82493View attachment 82494
sure
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shows some of this too. I'd say in the case of "single hull". There is still going to be significantly more space across the really noisy engine room area for noise isolation equipment than a double hull sub of same beam. I mean even the Russians have gone to single hull with Lada and possibly with Yasen. It's about time China does too.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
To a layman like me a single hulled submarine just seems crazy, it feels as if any tiny bump or hole could cause the entire tube to implode, though that's probably not the case since western submarines have switched to single hulled

The external hull in a double hulled submarine isn't made to be a pressure vessel. You don't get any extra pressure resistance from it.
The external hull is basically used to shape the hull hydro dynamically and might increase sound dampening.
 

Tam

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shows some of this too. I'd say in the case of "single hull". There is still going to be significantly more space across the really noisy engine room area for noise isolation equipment than a double hull sub of same beam. I mean even the Russians have gone to single hull with Lada and possibly with Yasen. It's about time China does too.


Aft section is some form of double hulled in a "single hull" submarine because you need ballast tanks in that section to balance the ballast tanks in the front section. The difference of buoyancy between the two ballast tank sections control the pitch of the submarine. It takes the form of either the tapering cone with the shaft around it to be a completely ballast tank, which limits how you can silence the shaft, or the pressure hull has a waist to form the ballast tanks around it, in which case, does reduce the space in the engine room.

No. 6 is the aft ballast tank.
2750px-Los_Angeles_class_submarine_drawing2.svg.png

You want to put the shaft within the pressure hull but you have to waist it. This reduces the space in the engine room.

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The more buoyancy you need, the larger your ballast tanks you are going to need, and that will inevitably completely engulf the pressure hull anyway. You want as much negative buoyancy in order to dive deeper and put as many thermal layers as possible from your attacker. If you don't have deep dive requirements, in a double hull, you can go with thinner ballast tanks anyway with lets you enlarge your pressure hull. Notice how the pressure hull covers both engine room and propeller shaft to the very end.

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It becomes a matter of how deep you want to dive. The Soryu class is known to dive very deep, and so does the Yuan class. These requirements came about because there are sections in the East and South China Seas that are very deep and are trenchy.

The Lada class looks like this, which is typical of European SSKs.

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The front is entirely a ballast tank, and the rear taper is a ballast tank wrapped around the shaft and the engine room. If you look at this, its still tight in the engine space. European SSKs also have shoulder hump that is a free flood area and can be used for hold things for the AIP like oxygen. In other designs, you still have a sectional double hull at the bottom to be used for fuel.

There is another reason why you might want to do a single hull design like this versus a double hull, and it comes from an entirely different vector. That is, the single hull design is likely less labor intensive to make. It looks simpler to construct than say this.

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Single hull submarines use a greater proportion of capital intensive equipment (machine presses, etc,.) to form the partly hydrodynamic pressure hull, while the Soviet Union and the earlier PRC has less of such, but has more cheaper labor.

Double hulls are more labor intensive, but less capital intensive. You can design the pressure hull to be a much simpler cylinder form, which is easier to press, and the complex hydrodynamic form can be pressed with machinery available using thinner metal skin, so the presses don't need to be as powerful. You got the cheaper labor to weld the more complex setup altogether. But nowadays, modern China and Russia are becoming more capital intensive in their manufacturing and look to reduce labor. Hence they will end up in the same trajectory as the Western sphere did.
 
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enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
A small electric sub designed to lurk in coastal water and can perform 25 knots sprint in a pinch makes a ton of sense, especially for A2/AD. You can build 10 of these with the price of one 093, sprinkle them all over SCS makes it a nightmare for enemy sub to operate in.

My only question is how would sonar performance be impacted by the size?
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am thinking, just from my guts, that it could be for new battery technologies, such as Lithium Ion or LiFePo, and testing new design and hull concepts.

There's a specification sheet for a Winston Battery WB-LYP10000AHA battery pack from 2014, which markets itself as used in the Yuan.
It's listed as 31MWh with a weight of 335tonnes using Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. That is much higher performance than previous generation lead-acid batteries.

Also, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer than lead-acid batteries because they can't release chlorine gas when exposed to seawater. And with lead-acid batteries, you could get an explosion if enough chlorine gas is produced quickly.

So why wouldn't you go with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, given an inherently safer battery chemistry which cannot produce explosions or release toxic gases when exposed to sewater, whilst also providing a lot more performance.

I expect these batteries have been used in the Yuan for years now.


shop.gwl.eu/blog/LiFePO4/Winston-Battery-WB-LYP10000AHA-in-large-submarines.html

Winston_Battery_WB-LYP10000AHA_in_large_submarines2 (1).jpg
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
A small electric sub designed to lurk in coastal water and can perform 25 knots sprint in a pinch makes a ton of sense, especially for A2/AD. You can build 10 of these with the price of one 093, sprinkle them all over SCS makes it a nightmare for enemy sub to operate in.

My only question is how would sonar performance be impacted by the size?

Active sonar is less effective on smaller boats than on larger boats. The bigger you are, the more you reflect.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's a specification sheet for a Winston Battery WB-LYP10000AHA battery pack from 2014, which markets itself as used in the Yuan.
It's listed as 31MWh with a weight of 335tonnes using Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. That is much higher performance than previous generation lead-acid batteries.

Also, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are safer than lead-acid batteries because they can't release chlorine gas when exposed to seawater. And with lead-acid batteries, you could get an explosion if enough chlorine gas is produced quickly.

So why wouldn't you go with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, given an inherently safer battery chemistry which cannot produce explosions or release toxic gases when exposed to sewater, whilst also providing a lot more performance.

I expect these batteries have been used in the Yuan for years now.


shop.gwl.eu/blog/LiFePO4/Winston-Battery-WB-LYP10000AHA-in-large-submarines.html

View attachment 82535

Thanks. That's one hell of a find. This can confirm Yuans using Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries as early as 2014, which is ahead of anyone using Li-Ion on conventional submarines by years.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thanks. That's one hell of a find. This can confirm Yuans using Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries as early as 2014, which is ahead of anyone using Li-Ion on conventional submarines by years.

Yes. But remember that only Chinese companies make Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, so this shouldn't be a surprise.

With these battery specifications, you get 92Wh/kg, which compares to lead-acid batteries typically at 40Wh/kg.

You could take the 500ton Type-206A submarine as a rough equivalent to the new submarine. If you only replace the batteries, you would have 2.3x the battery power available.
That should be more than 1100km of range at 4knots on battery.

Perhaps there is a better thread to discuss this?
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Active sonar is less effective on smaller boats than on larger boats. The bigger you are, the more you reflect.

I mean the impact on the sub's passive sonar performance, smaller sub means smaller aperture.
 
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