PLA Navy news, pics and videos

Blitzo · Nov 19, 2020

gelgoog said:
I don't think it will be much larger. If you creep it up to 6000 tons then you get into Type 052D territory.

Just consider what the Russians are doing with their frigates. The newer 'Admiral Amelko' will have 24x VLS surface attack plus 32x VLS air defense with up to 400 km range air-to-air missiles and quad-pack short range air-to-air missile capability. AESA radar.

The Type 054 has 8x surface attack, 8x VLS air defense with short range missiles only (15km range) with no AESA radar.

Even if the PLAN only doubles the amount of surface attack launch cells, improves the air to air missiles, adds AESA, and makes it the same displacement as the 'Admiral Gorshkov' (4500 tons) it would represent a massive increase in capabilities. Even if it only had an air to air defense system equivalent to S-350 it would be a vast improvement.

Regarding the bolded part -- uhh, excuse me?

054A has 32 HHQ-16 VLS, where the original variant that first entered service back in the mid/late 2000s with a range of about 50km, and since then we've seen additional newer variants emerge, likely with range in excess of 70km given what we know about the improvements in range that the export LY-80 have been cited with, and we know there are at least two visually different HHQ-16 improved variants from the original type.

Also, while the Sea Eagle radar of course isn't an AESA, it is a quite capable PESA and perfectly fine for its time and still capable now although obviously far from cutting edge.

===

That said, I agree that approaching 6000 tons seems a bit much.

But I think going over 5,000 tons, approaching 5,500 tons is viable even as an evolution of the 054A hull.
The new Japanese FFM/DX30/30FFM/whatever it's called actually has a full displacement of 5,500 tons and dimensions that are actually virtually identical to 054A. Of course its hull geometry is different despite having similar overall peak dimensions to 054A.

11226p · Nov 19, 2020

gelgoog said:
I don't think it will be much larger. If you creep it up to 6000 tons then you get into Type 052D territory.

Just consider what the Russians are doing with their frigates. The newer 'Admiral Amelko' will have 24x VLS surface attack plus 32x VLS air defense with up to 400 km range air-to-air missiles and quad-pack short range air-to-air missile capability. AESA radar.

The Type 054 has 8x surface attack, 8x VLS air defense with short range missiles only (15km range) with no AESA radar.

Even if the PLAN only doubles the amount of surface attack launch cells, improves the air to air missiles, adds AESA, and makes it the same displacement as the 'Admiral Gorshkov' (4500 tons) it would represent a massive increase in capabilities. Even if it only had an air to air defense system equivalent to S-350E aka Poliment-Redut it would be a vast improvement.

That's the Type 054 baseline the 054A has a number of improvements which makes it a very capable frigate.

gelgoog · Nov 19, 2020

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong spec sheet, sorry about that, my mistake.
But from what I understand each of those cells is still smaller than Poliment-Redut and can't quad-pack missiles. It's like a Buk equivalent.

While something like S400 capability is probably too much for a frigate I think S350E capability would be nice.
If they used the HHQ-9 with optional quad-packing then it would have commonality with the cruisers in terms of load.
Even if was just 16x cells with quad-packing of short range missiles it would be better IMHO.
9M100 missile, for example, has 10km range but it would be useful against loitering munitions and drones.

Blitzo · Nov 19, 2020

gelgoog said:
Yeah, I was looking at the wrong spec sheet, sorry about that, my mistake.
But from what I understand each of those cells is still smaller than Poliment-Redut and can't quad-pack missiles. It's like a Buk equivalent.

While something like S400 capability is probably too much for a frigate I think S350E capability would be nice.
If they used the HHQ-9 with optional quad-packing then it would have commonality with the cruisers in terms of load.
Even if was just 16x cells with quad-packing of short range missiles it would be better IMHO.
9M100 missile, for example, has 10km range but it would be useful against loitering munitions and drones.

The Buk missile itself isn't exactly small, the missile itself is larger than a normal SM-2 sans booster, and HHQ-16 is at least as big.

If you're talking about the VLS loadout of 054A and where it can be improved for the next generation frigate, this is something which has been discussed for years, if not going back to like 2006 when the size of 054A's VLS was first identified.

054A's VLS probably isn't big enough to quad pack the new 3-5 missile, and that's why for the last few years one of the big questions for 054B has been whether it will field the UVLS because that VLS will obviously be big enough to quad pack 3-5.
There's been lots of discussion already regarding 054B's likely characteristics.

I've already put out my suggestion in the past; 5,500 tons full displacement, 32 UVLS, IEPS or some form of electric propulsion (as widely rumoured), dual side AESA that we've identified on the test ship for a while, 8 AShMs (either aft UVLS or slant launch).

I'm also not sure why you're looking at the RuN's adoption of VLS types and loadouts as if it is something to pursue, when there are far more successful VLS systems (namely Mk-41) with much wider variety and more logical VLS loadouts and quad packing solutions.

Kich · Nov 19, 2020

weig2000 said:
pop3 leaks
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
about PLAN's latest build plan:

如图所示
054B明年启动; (054B to start construction next year)
054A后续再上20艘，黄埔12艘、沪东8艘; (20 more 054A, 12 by Huangpu, 8 by Hudong)
055现在已知16艘; (total 16 055's known currently)
052D、071、075都会上批量，如075目前总数8艘。 (052D, 071, 075 will continue with batch production, e.g., total 8 075's known now)
076现在尚未走完程序，后续不祥。(076 still in the process, don't know what's next exactly)

View attachment 65539

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My comments:

Other than 054A, all others are largely expected and, indeed, consistent with what I had projected repeatedly in different threads before:

Additional 4-8 055's by 2025

12 071's and 6 075's by 2025

Additional 11 052D's

I don't quite understand the 20 more 054A's while starting 054B at the same time. There are enough 054A now; they should concentrate on 054B instead. Also, 054B or 057 should be at least over 5k tons, preferably over 6k tons. One explanation would be 054B will be an incremental upgrade from 054A, with slight increase in displacement, sensor upgrades, even IEPS. Who knows.

As usual, pop3 doesn't talk about submarines.

There used to be a 2025 target date for PLAN to become blue water capable based on some insider's accounts. I think the new target date is 2027 now, per CCP's recently closed 5th Plenum. Of course the build plan will be adjusted accordingly.

No info on the carrier build plan. Last time, pop3 claimed that PLAN had the ambition of building 10, although no dates were given. I would project two conventional CATOBAR carriers commissioned by 2027, with a least one nuclear-powered carrier under construction by 2027.

It will be very exciting to watch PLAN to evolve into a true, complete blue water navy over the next seven years.

20 more Type-054 means PLAN will have a lot of obsolete vessels down the road in the future. Unless these 20 represent significant upgrades, then maybe this number is justify.
If not then this doesn't seem very sound but instead more like a rush to buildup numbers. 10 would have been better while 054B/057 comes in fruition.
It's possible these 20 new might receive enough upgrades to be designated as 054B. Meaning the next class might be 057/05X

Tam · Nov 19, 2020

gelgoog said:
I don't think it will be much larger. If you creep it up to 6000 tons then you get into Type 052D territory.

Just consider what the Russians are doing with their frigates. The newer 'Admiral Amelko' will have 24x VLS surface attack plus 32x VLS air defense with up to 400 km range air-to-air missiles and quad-pack short range air-to-air missile capability. AESA radar.

The Type 054 has 8x surface attack, 8x VLS air defense with short range missiles only (15km range) with no AESA radar.

Even if the PLAN only doubles the amount of surface attack launch cells, improves the air to air missiles, adds AESA, and makes it the same displacement as the 'Admiral Gorshkov' (4500 tons) it would represent a massive increase in capabilities. Even if it only had an air to air defense system equivalent to S-350E aka Poliment-Redut it would be a vast improvement.

Size may not matter when it totally depends how you call it --- Izumo is a helicopter destroyer, 055 is a destroyer, Zumwalt is a destroyer and so on. RN's Type 22, 23 and 26 are frigates because they are ASW despite being larger than contemporary matching air defense destroyers such as Type 42 and 45.

Tam · Nov 19, 2020

Bltizo said:
Regarding the bolded part -- uhh, excuse me?

054A has 32 HHQ-16 VLS, where the original variant that first entered service back in the mid/late 2000s with a range of about 50km, and since then we've seen additional newer variants emerge, likely with range in excess of 70km given what we know about the improvements in range that the export LY-80 have been cited with, and we know there are at least two visually different HHQ-16 improved variants from the original type.

Also, while the Sea Eagle radar of course isn't an AESA, it is a quite capable PESA and perfectly fine for its time and still capable now although obviously far from cutting edge.

===

That said, I agree that approaching 6000 tons seems a bit much.

But I think going over 5,000 tons, approaching 5,500 tons is viable even as an evolution of the 054A hull.
The new Japanese FFM/DX30/30FFM/whatever it's called actually has a full displacement of 5,500 tons and dimensions that are actually virtually identical to 054A. Of course its hull geometry is different despite having similar overall peak dimensions to 054A.

Problem of Sea Eagle is that it only electronically scans vertically, and you need to turn it around for the horizontal scan. That limits the rate of your 3D scan to the speed of rotation. If the radar only turns around 30 times a minute, then your update rate is only 30 times a minute. There is going to be some ensuing lag between scans against a fast moving object.

This isn't a 3D scanning phase array.

If you have a 3D scanning phase array, the array can electronically scan in both directions at X axis, and at Y axis. If the array is rotatin, the scan can sweep in the same direction of the rotation, and then sweep at the opposite direction of the rotation. This means that regardless of the speed of rotation, you can scan for X number of times against a target, limited only by the number of electronic scans. Against a fast moving object it becomes more accurate. Another is that you can make the beam dwell on the target longer, so you can fix and lock on a target with a lower RCS. The radar still rotates, but its only to provide a 360 degree coverage, and the rate of scan is now independent from the rotation per minute of the array. You can rotate it slower, you can rotate it faster and still have the same rate of update. You can still keep a vertical only scanning mode and rotate the radar.

For fast tracking on the 054A, the Sea Eagle has two sides. So a 30 RPM would mean an update rate of 60 RPM. If the ship's combat data system allows you to recombine data from other sources, such as the Type 364 Sea Gull C radar which has a rotation rate of 60 per minute, so your track rate now doubles against a target. This is where the Front Domes have to come in. These are 3D scanning spaced PESAs, and if the target is within range and line of sight, the Front Domes can take over tracking and locking on what is the most threatening target determined by the computer, based on the speed, approach and range of the target that have been detected and tracked by both the Sea Eagle and the Sea Gull radar. The Type 366 Bandstand radar, the Type 347 Rice Lamp radar, and the Type 751 ESM units can also contribute to the search and track of targets in the battle space, and there sitll even the potential of adding the Type 347 and the EO units in the CIWS to add to the picture.

So the ship's high redundancy to the point of overcompensation can compensate for the Sea Eagle, but it does get a bit messy. All these units paints an overall noisy picture of the ship when it comes to RF radiation, and that's going to be picked up by enemy ESM. The ship can end up giving away itself and the fleet it escorts to the enemy. The ship will have to EMCON and get sensor data from its ESM, ships that have LPI capable AESA, and from aerial sources via CEC and datalink. This makes the ship less useful as both a scout and an escort, which means for the sake of survivability it has to be within the bubble of other ships like 052C/D and 055. Having the ship on LPI capable AESA and improving the ESM will do wonders in both the utility and independence of the ship.

Blitzo · Nov 19, 2020

Tam said:
Problem of Sea Eagle is that it only electronically scans vertically, and you need to turn it around for the horizontal scan. That limits the rate of your 3D scan to the speed of rotation. If the radar only turns around 30 times a minute, then your update rate is only 30 times a minute. There is going to be some ensuing lag between scans against a fast moving object.

This isn't a 3D scanning phase array.

If you have a 3D scanning phase array, the array can electronically scan in both directions at X axis, and at Y axis. If the array is rotatin, the scan can sweep in the same direction of the rotation, and then sweep at the opposite direction of the rotation. This means that regardless of the speed of rotation, you can scan for X number of times against a target, limited only by the number of electronic scans. Against a fast moving object it becomes more accurate. Another is that you can make the beam dwell on the target longer, so you can fix and lock on a target with a lower RCS. The radar still rotates, but its only to provide a 360 degree coverage, and the rate of scan is now independent from the rotation per minute of the array. You can rotate it slower, you can rotate it faster and still have the same rate of update. You can still keep a vertical only scanning mode and rotate the radar.

For fast tracking on the 054A, the Sea Eagle has two sides. So a 30 RPM would mean an update rate of 60 RPM. If the ship's combat data system allows you to recombine data from other sources, such as the Type 364 Sea Gull C radar which has a rotation rate of 60 per minute, so your track rate now doubles against a target. This is where the Front Domes have to come in. These are 3D scanning spaced PESAs, and if the target is within range and line of sight, the Front Domes can take over tracking and locking on what is the most threatening target determined by the computer, based on the speed, approach and range of the target that have been detected and tracked by both the Sea Eagle and the Sea Gull radar. The Type 366 Bandstand radar, the Type 347 Rice Lamp radar, and the Type 751 ESM units can also contribute to the search and track of targets in the battle space, and there sitll even the potential of adding the Type 347 and the EO units in the CIWS to add to the picture.

So the ship's high redundancy to the point of overcompensation can compensate for the Sea Eagle, but it does get a bit messy. All these units paints an overall noisy picture of the ship when it comes to RF radiation, and that's going to be picked up by enemy ESM. The ship can end up giving away itself and the fleet it escorts to the enemy. The ship will have to EMCON and get sensor data from its ESM, ships that have LPI capable AESA, and from aerial sources via CEC and datalink. This makes the ship less useful as both a scout and an escort, which means for the sake of survivability it has to be within the bubble of other ships like 052C/D and 055. Having the ship on LPI capable AESA and improving the ESM will do wonders in both the utility and independence of the ship.

No offense but none of this particularly goes against what I'm saying.

Sea Eagle was a capable but not cutting edge system in the mid-late 2000s and a good compromise for the technology at the time, and going forwards now into the early 2020s for opposing forces which are not highly technologically capable they remain a viable system especially if operating in conjunction with more capable destroyers in support and with massive air and naval superiority overall.

Everything you described about Sea Eagle's deficiencies is why 054B is going to emerge and be equipped with a much more capable sensor suite leveraging the advances made in the decade and a half since 054A was conceived...

Tam · Nov 19, 2020

Bltizo said:
No offense but none of this particularly goes against what I'm saying.

Sea Eagle was a capable but not cutting edge system in the mid-late 2000s and a good compromise for the technology at the time, and going forwards now into the early 2020s for opposing forces which are not highly technologically capable they remain a viable system especially if operating in conjunction with more capable destroyers in support and with massive air and naval superiority ove
Everything you described about Sea Eagle's deficiencies is why 054B is going to emerge and be equipped with a much more capable sensor suite leveraging the advances made in the decade and a half since 054A was conceived...

The problem of Sea Eagle is that this is not a particularly EW resistant radar. Its a frequency scanning, the beam bends because each linear wave guide has a slightly different frequency vertically across the face and that creates the upward-downward sweep. This kind of radar is common among search radars when you see a windows blinds pattern.

As such it does not produce a tight beam, more like a fan like multi-lobe pattern, some of it can even reflect on the ground for clutter. Its hard to do things like pulse compression on it. Its not frequency agile and you can only operate it within a narrow band. Even by the mid 2000s this type of radar is old, as the design goes back to the SPS-48 and SPS-52 radars used in the Cold War.

See that black array right there?

That's how old this design is. Go check out what the cruisers in those pictures and tell me when these ships were launched.

Outside of China, India, and Russia, no currently modern ship is using these except for Nimitz class carriers, America class LHDs and San Antonio class LPDs.

By now, its already 2020s and new 054A has to last at least 40 years before they are retired. That's like 2040 already. Opposing forces are modern and getting more modern like you see with 30FF. Even the little frigates of the Philippine Navy has at least a modern phase array.

While existing 054A can be viable under the cover of protective destroyers, the PLAN doesn't need any more of this paradigm, as it does with ships that can take care of itself more and is able to operate more independently. That's essentially what frigates are supposed to be.

For the new 054A, at least one if not both of the top search radars have to go, and the new batch should also serve as a prototype for the MLU of the existing batches.

Blitzo · Nov 19, 2020

Tam said:
The problem of Sea Eagle is that this is not a particularly EW resistant radar. Its a frequency scanning, the beam bends because each linear wave guide has a slightly different frequency vertically across the face and that creates the upward-downward sweep. This kind of radar is common among search radars when you see a windows blinds pattern.

View attachment 65744

As such it does not produce a tight beam, more like a fan like multi-lobe pattern, some of it can even reflect on the ground for clutter. Its hard to do things like pulse compression on it. Its not frequency agile and you can only operate it within a narrow band. Even by the mid 2000s this type of radar is old, as the design goes back to the SPS-48 and SPS-52 radars used in the Cold War.

See that black array right there?

View attachment 65746

That's how old this design is. Go check out what the cruisers in those pictures and tell me when these ships were launched.

Outside of China, India, and Russia, no currently modern ship is using these except for Nimitz class carriers, America class LHDs and San Antonio class LPDs.

By now, its already 2020s and new 054A has to last at least 40 years before they are retired. That's like 2040 already. Opposing forces are modern and getting more modern like you see with 30FF. Even the little frigates of the Philippine Navy has at least a modern phase array.

View attachment 65747

While existing 054A can be viable under the cover of protective destroyers, the PLAN doesn't need any more of this paradigm, as it does with ships that can take care of itself more and is able to operate more independently. That's essentially what frigates are supposed to be.

For the new 054A, at least one if not both of the top search radars have to go, and the new batch should also serve as a prototype for the MLU of the existing batches.

The relative capability of the 054A's sensor suite is already known to me, there's no need to express it in such extensive detail.
Come on.

If you are saying that you think the new batch of 054As should field a more modern sensor suite, I don't have any disagreement with you inherently, and on balance I think it is plausible that the Sea Eagle might be replaced with a small sized AESA, perhaps the same one fitted to Pakistani 054APs.

But at the same time, the only reason I can see the PLA procuring 20 054As while 054B will be ongoing at the same time, is if they want the extra 054A hulls in service quickly and without hassle.
Whether that means they will tolerate a degree of modification to the sensor suite is not something I can say at this stage, but it depends on how the PLAN assesses the relative risk.

I will say that these ships are of course going to be in service for decades, but also there's no reason an MLU has to be that urgent such that they have to be introduced with these 20 ships in particular.
It would be nice if they were, but if it means taking more years to get these 20 ships in service, would the PLAN deem the timing of these improvements worth it?

Again, let me reiterate that I fully appreciate the technology where 054A's sensor suite sits relative to various global peers (or even other ships in the Chinese Navy). I also fully agree and expect that the PLAN's 054A fleet will get a sensor MLU in the not too distant future.
But I'm arguing whether it is important for these 20 ships in particular to be the ones to field these upgrades.

PLA Navy news, pics and videos

Blitzo

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11226p

Junior Member

gelgoog

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Blitzo

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Kich

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Tam

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Tam

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Blitzo

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Tam

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Blitzo

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