PLA Navy news, pics and videos

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
well in reaction to 54 minutes ago

you asked 41 minutes ago

and I answered 32 minutes ago
and here I have nothing more to add

So in other words, your criticism about the arsenal ship has nothing to do with the arsenal ship but rather the escorts, in other words you're saying escorts in naval warfare is susceptible.


here though:
I got an impression as if you had considered me to be some kind of a Clown (it would be OK with me) as you first 'put words in my mouth' with

"... you're basically saying that in a way, all the ships in a task force will have to essentially fight alone without the ability to pass targeting information with each other. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?"
inside
#1086 Bltizo, 52 minutes ago

and after I had said I wouldn't react to this, you pressed on with
"So you agree with my suggestion that your logic doesn't make sense?"
right after

your move now

I don't know what you're trying to say, if you're admitting that your logic doesn't make sense or if you're saying it still makes sense somehow.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
I don't know what all the hulabaloo is all about. I say it's about damn time. I mean, this is really just a glorified porter, a job that's existed for millenia within the military. With all the focus on sensors these days, carrying and firing missiles has become a mundane task best left to the porters of the fleet.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
If they've gone for a semi submersible route rather than a cat or trimaran (which I think are more conventional and less advanced hullforms and not exactly ones which China has little experience with), I think there must be some sensible reason for it.
That's a big IF to base your subsequent conclusion on. I could just as easily say they have NOT gone for a semi-submersible arsenal ship, because all you have so far is a rumor. Yes, yes, that's how they all start, but for now you've got nothing more substantive than that. Plus more conventional doesn't equal less likely to be built, so I have no idea why you are even bringing up the fact that the PLAN has more experience with the more "conventional" catamaran or trimaran hull forms.
 
Last edited:
So in other words, your criticism about the arsenal ship has nothing to do with the arsenal ship but rather the escorts, in other words you're saying escorts in naval warfare is susceptible.

I wonder why do you try do "interpret" what I say


I don't know what you're trying to say, if you're admitting that your logic doesn't make sense or if you're saying it still makes sense somehow.
you said something preposterous

("... you're basically saying that in a way, all the ships in a task force will have to essentially fight alone without the ability to pass targeting information with each other. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?"
inside
#1086)

and tried to presented it in the way as if your preposterous statement had been something I said; then I informed you I would not react to the above, but you just kept going in #1089
...
unfortunately in the part:

you 'put words in my mouth' so I won't react
So you agree with my suggestion that your logic doesn't make sense?
...
and in the post I quote now; if we just disagreed, it would be fine! but I don't understand this "argumentation" style of yours

but whatever, all I had to say on the topic is in my posts (ten plus I guess) from
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
up to this one. cheers
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I wonder why do you try do "interpret" what I say

Because I'm not exactly sure what you mean.



you said something preposterous

("... you're basically saying that in a way, all the ships in a task force will have to essentially fight alone without the ability to pass targeting information with each other. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?"
inside
#1086)

and tried to presented it in the way as if your preposterous statement had been something I said; then I informed you I would not react to the above, but you just kept going in #1089

and in the post I quote now; if we just disagreed, it would be fine! but I don't understand this "argumentation" style of yours

but whatever, all I had to say on the topic is in my posts (ten plus I guess) from
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
up to this one. cheers

At this point I'm not sure what your premises are and your subsequent posts aren't exactly helping clarify your position.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
That's a big IF to base your subsequent conclusion on. I could just as easily say they have NOT gone for a semi-submersible arsenal ship, because all you have so far is a rumor. Yes, yes, that's how they all start, but for now you've got nothing more substantive than that. Plus more conventional doesn't equal less likely to be built, so I have no idea why you are even bringing up the fact that the PLAN has more experience with the more "conventional" catamaran or trimaran hull forms.

It's okay, we're still at the very early stages of a potential project unfolding.
My interest right now is to take what little possible information we do have and to try and rationalize it and slot it into what we know about the pre-existing context, and to play around with some of the parameters to see what sticks.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Henri.K with more information.

Looks like Ma Weiming (father of Chinese EMALS and Railgun) has taken over this project after the death of Dong Wen Cai.

Idon't think so, the way I read it, Henri K even deliberately writes in the second half that the relationship between Ma Weiming's proposal for the new universal combat ship and Dong's high speed wave piercing platform may not even be related.


After all, if we think about it, Dong Wencai's area of expertise was hydrodynamics, Ma Weiming's was in EM and powerplant engineering. If there was any sort of interaction, Ma's work would be complementary to Dong's work and if Dong was leading the project it's unlikely Ma would replace him in a similar role.
 
will be putting here google translation of the source:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
as I read
La Chine a-t-elle fait renaître l’Arsenal Ship, mais en semi-submersible ?
Has China revived the Arsenal Ship, but in semi-submersible?


La Chine pourrait être en train de concevoir une nouvelle classe de navire de guerre qui reprend, en partie du moins, le concept de l’Arsenal Ship mais sous forme de semi-submersible. C’est en tout cas ce qui laisse croire une nouvelle rumeur qui circule depuis la semaine dernière.
"China might be designing a new class of warship that incorporates, at least in part, the concept of the Arsenal Ship but in the form of semi-submersible. This is in any case what lets believe a new rumor circulating since last week."
Selon cette source chinoise, le projet d’une plateforme « omni-rôles » dont le déplacement dépasse les « milliers de tonne » serait lancé.

L’image diffusée par la même source dessine ainsi un navire semi-submersible disposant de deux massifs, situés à l’avant et à l’arrière, et entre lesquels se trouvent un certain nombre de silos de lancement vertical.

L’auteur indique également que le bâtiment ne peut pas entièrement plonger sous l’eau, et qu’il est capable d’opérer seul sans être accompagné d’un groupe aéronaval, pour adresser des cibles aussi bien aériennes, sous-marines, navales et au sol.

Alors est-ce qu’il s’agit d’un énième fantasme d’amateur « putaclic », comme disaient certains, pour rêver de faire comme « les grands » en son temps avec le concept grandiose de l’Arsenal ship ?
"According to this Chinese source, the project of a platform "omni-roles" whose displacement exceeds "thousands of tons" would be launched.

The image broadcast by the same source thus draws a semi-submersible vessel having two massifs, situated at the front and at the rear, and between which there are a number of vertical launching silos.

The author also states that the vessel can not fully dive underwater, and is capable of operating alone without being accompanied by a carrier group, to address air, submarine and naval targets And on the ground.

So is this another amateur fantasy "putaclic", as some said, to dream of doing as "the great" in his time with the grandiose concept of the Arsenal ship?"
Et bien, peut-être pas pour cette fois-ci.

C’était en Août 2016 lorsque l’on a vu passer un drôle de crobard dans un reportage télévisé local, qui rend hommage à un enseignant-chercheur de l’Université d’ingénieur de la marine chinoise, mort dans un cancer à l’âge de 49 ans. D’après la présentation, l’homme a fortement contribué aux études de l’hydrodynamique et à la performance de navigation des navires militaires en Chine.
"Well, maybe not for this time.

It was in August 2016 when we saw a funny crook in a local television report, which pays tribute to a teacher-researcher of the University of Engineer of the Chinese Navy, Age of 49 years. According to the presentation, man contributed greatly to the study of the hydrodynamics and navigation performance of military ships in China."
Après l’échange avec un ami, expert en conception navale, sur ce qu’il pourrait être comme type de navire, ce dernier pense qu’il s’agisse d’une « petite barcasse à froud élevé avec mise en équation de résistance totale Rt donc de la traîne non archimèdienne, avec une coque en V semi-planant disposant des volumes latéraux (ballasts ??), et une double paire de stabilos non escamotables aux dimensions différentes ».

« …bref le mec (un hydro) bosse sur un projet de bateau rapide… », rajoute-il.

Plusieurs pistes avaient donc été avancées dans notre discussion – un nouveau ravitailleur pour suivre un groupe aéronaval, une sorte de semi-submersible rapide d’infiltration comme le modèle I-SILC utilisé par les Nord Coréens, ou encore
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Mais aucune de ces hypothèses ne paraît totalement convaincante.

Quelques jours après, la chaîne de télévision militaire chinoise CCTV-7 a diffusé un autre reportage sur ce même chercheur DONG Wen Cai (董文才), et on aperçoit dans un passage un navire-drone de trois à quatre mètres de long, probablement un prototype, en train d’effectuer des essais au lac.
"After the exchange with a friend, naval design expert, about what he might be like ship type, the latter thinks it is a "small froud high barcass with total resistance equation Rt therefore of the non-archimedean drag, with a semi-gliding V shell with lateral volumes (ballasts ??), and a double pair of non-retractable stabilizers with different dimensions ".

"... in short the guy (a hydro) bump on a fast boat project ...", he adds.

Several leads had been put forward in our discussion - a new tanker to follow a carrier group, a sort of semi-submersible rapid infiltration like the I-SILC model used by the North Koreans, or a semi-submersible like the one constructed In 2013 for the Israeli Navy to replace the Alligator class.

But none of these assumptions seems totally convincing.

A few days later, Chinese television channel CCTV-7 broadcast another report on the same researcher DONG Wen Cai (董文 才), and we see in a passage a drone ship three to four meters long, probably one Prototype, testing at the lake."
 
continuation of the above post:
La curiosité nous amène à creuser davantage sur les derniers sujets d’étude de ce chercheur militaire chinois, qui a été décoré 4 fois au niveau national pour ses recherches et a dirigé les travaux d’une vingtaine de doctorant.

On apprend ainsi que DONG travaillait depuis une dizaine d’année sur deux thèmes principaux – la réduction active de la traînée par la formation d’une couche d’air sous la coque, et un nouvelle plateforme conceptuelle appelé HSWPVW (High Speed Wave Piercing Vehicle with Wings), qui combine les concepts de monocoque grande vitesse, hydroglisseur perçant et semi-submersible.

Ce deuxième thème a notamment été
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, une fondation directement rattachée au Conseil des affaires de l’État qui est présidé par le Premier ministre chinois, entre 2009 et 2011.

Quelques documents universitaires co-écrits par DONG permettent de voir que le HSWPVW est un navire qui est conçu pour permuter entre 4 modes de navigation différents en fonction des besoins – immergé à profondeur périscopique, semi-submersible, navigation de surface à vitesse normale, et semi-planant à grande vitesse.
"Curiosity leads us to dig deeper into the final subjects of study of this Chinese military researcher, who has been awarded four national awards for his research and has directed the work of some twenty doctoral students.

It is thus learned that DONG has been working for ten years on two main themes - active reduction of the drag by the formation of a layer of air under the hull, and a new conceptual platform called HSWPVW (High Speed Wave Piercing Vehicle With Wings), which combines the concepts of high-speed monohull, piercing hydrofoil and semi-submersible.

This second theme was a major subject funded by the NSFC, a foundation directly attached to the State Council which is chaired by the Chinese Prime Minister between 2009 and 2011.

A few academic documents co-authored by DONG show that the HSWPVW is a ship that is designed to swap between 4 different navigation modes depending on the needs - immersed at periscopic depth, semi-submersible, surface navigation at normal speed, and Semi-hovering at high speed."
Après quelques années de pré-études théoriques, les recherches de l’équipe de l’Université d’ingénierie de la marine chinoise, dirigée par DONG et assisté par l’Institut 701 du groupe naval chinois CSIC, semblent avoir avancé de grand pas et ont terminé les essais de démonstration en Octobre 2013, avec
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Certains résultats de recherche ont été directement appliqués dans le développement de navire « de catégorie milliers de tonne », selon le rapport soumis au comité de la NSFC.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
donne même une précision importante sur ces essais – il s’agissait de la phrase de démonstration technologique d’un projet (militaire) majeur appelé « Nouvelle plateforme de combat rapide ».
"After a few years of preliminary theoretical studies, the research of the team of the Chinese Naval Engineering University, led by DONG and assisted by the 701 Institute of the Chinese naval group CSIC, seem to have taken great strides and Completed the demonstration trials in October 2013, with a small-scale remotely-controlled ship weighing about a ton.

Some research findings have been directly applied in the development of "thousands of tonne" vessels, according to the report submitted to the NSFC committee.

An article published in September 2016 by the Xinhua news agency gives even an important clarification on these tests - it was the technological demonstration phrase of a major (military) project called "New Rapid Fight Platform"."
La mort de DONG en Janvier 2016 fait que nous n’avons plus entendu parler de la suite du projet, du moins dans la presse. Mais un autre chercheur militaire très emblématique, MA Wei Ming (马伟明), spécialiste en génie électrique et propulsion navale de la marine chinoise et académicien à l’Académie chinoise de l’Ingénierie, a évoqué en Avril cette année la notion du « navire omni-rôle », qui « bouleversera le style de combat naval existant ».

Ce navire « tout puissant » fait alors penser à l’Arsenal ship, un concept émergé en 1988 aux Etats Unis et soutenu par Jeremy BOORDA, ancien amiral et 25ème chef des Opérations navales de l’US Navy, dont l’objectif est de proposer une solution alternative aux capacités de projection que représente un groupe aéronaval autour de porte-avions.

Tout comme l’Arsenal ship américain, MA parle d’un navire dont le rayon de combat s’étend jusqu’à 1 000 km, avec de nombreux missiles et des armes à énergie embarqués.

On ignore s’il y a un lien direct entre le projet de « nouvelle plateforme de combat rapide » HSWPVW sur lequel travaille le professeur DONG, et le « navire omni-rôles » évoqué par MA, mais on peut d’ores et déjà supposer que la marine chinoise étudie très activement sur ses navires de combat d’après-demain, alors qu’une nouvelle génération de navire de première ligne chinois – comme la frégate Type 054B de 4 000 tonnes, le destroyer moyen Type 052D de 6 000 tonnes, et le destroyer polyvalent Type 055 de 12 000 tonnes pour ne citer qu’eux – est en cours de construction actuellement.

Est-ce réaliste et réalisable de concevoir un Arsenal ship semi-submersible ? Nos compétences sont limitées pour en parler intelligemment. Il dépendra certainement de la vision de la marine chinoise sur les combats navals de lendemain et aussi les principales menaces qu’elle pourra faire face, à commencer par les groupes aéronavals par exemple, qui constituent encore aujourd’hui, 100 ans après leurs apparitions, l’outil de projection de force le plus efficace.

Mais on pourra imaginer (de manière utopique) une plateforme semi-submersible furtif, déplaçant entre 6 000 et 12 000 tonnes et hautement automatisé, qui servira comme l’un des points de pivot pour accroître la puissance de feu d’une marine articulée autour de quelques groupes aéronavals, en s’appuyant essentiellement sur les données reçues par d’autres capteurs distribués.
"The death of DONG in January 2016 means that we no longer heard about the rest of the project, at least in the press. But another very emblematic military researcher, Mr. A. Wei Ming (马伟明), a specialist in electrical engineering and naval propulsion of the Chinese Navy and academician at the Chinese Academy of Engineering, referred in April this year to the notion of "omni -rôle ", which" will upset the style of existing naval combat ".

This "all powerful" ship is like the Arsenal ship, a concept emerged in 1988 in the United States and supported by Jeremy BOORDA, former admiral and 25th chief of naval operations of the US Navy, whose objective is to propose An alternative solution to the projection capabilities that a carrier group represents around aircraft carriers.

Like the American Arsenal ship, MA speaks of a ship whose combat radius extends up to 1,000 km, with many missiles and energy weapons embedded.

It is not known whether there is a direct link between the project of the "new rapid combat platform" HSWPVW on which Professor Dong works and the "omni-roles ship" evoked by MA, but one can already suppose That the Chinese navy is very actively studying its fighting ships the day after tomorrow, while a new generation of Chinese first-line vessels - such as the Type 4404 frigate of 4,000 tons, the average destroyer Type 052D of 6,000 tons , And the multi-purpose destroyer Type 055 of 12,000 tons to name but a few - is currently under construction.

Is it realistic and feasible to design an Arsenal ship semi-submersible? Our skills are limited to speak intelligently. It will certainly depend on the vision of the Chinese navy on future naval combat and also the main threats it may face, starting with the naval air groups, for example, which still today, 100 years after their apparitions, The most effective force projection tool.

But we can imagine (utopianally) a stealth semi-submersible platform, moving between 6,000 and 12,000 tons and highly automated, which will serve as one of the pivot points to increase the firepower of a navy articulated around Of a few carrier groups, relying essentially on the data received by other distributed sensors."
 
Top