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Blitzo

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Yes! The American LRASM and Japanese ASM-3 will pass harmlessly over this ship when it dives.

A super-sized poor-man's Oscar-class SSGN, so to speak.

Not necessarily; this ship is described as only being semi submersible, so AShMs which can dive in terminal flight profile can obviously still hit it as the ship's hull will still just be a few meters below the waves.

However, being semi submerged does mean it can substantially reduce its topside radar signature, meaning when it is part of a battle group it will likely be far more stealthy than an equivalently sized surface ship with the same number of cells, reducing the opfor's ability to ID and track the ship thus making it more survivable.


I see it less like a "poor man's SSGN" and more like an innovative take on the classic arsenal ship proposal, most of which were concepts with fairly conventional large surface ships (which means a big RCS if substantial stealth measures were not implemented), but this concept, if real, would significantly reduce its RCS.
 

Insignius

Junior Member
If this thing can justr dive 5 meters or whatever the snorkels and periscope allows, it will be plenty protected against anti ship sea-skimmers. Remember, if a missile crashes into water, it will most probably desintegrate (at 900kph, water-surface is like a concrete wall to the lightly built missiles), not to mention that most missile warhead fuzes wont actually work under water. Also, it is kinda a far assumption that even with top-attack profile, an anti ship missile that sees no overwater target for its active radar and ImIR seeker can actually know the exact location of the submersed ship and dive down upon it.

What I would think is that the US would try to counter this with the development of a long range torpedo carrying anti ship/ASW missile - but those will inevitably be either slower, high-fying and thus less stealthy or rather big and vulnerable to SAM (as well as taking more space on the USN combattants).
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
If this project is real it would be an exciting development as it is genuinely new platform concept reflecting the continued evolution of a distinctly Chinese way of war.

It is .... very exciting time ... very innovative! .. wondering how would the SAM or ASM know the targets as there is no radar on the ship. Perhaps other ships or satellites will guide the SAM or ASM to the target? similar to SSK/SSN ASM/SAM..... China has enough satellites to do the job?
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
This look like a terrible idea, it has the worst of both surface ship and subs.

It's probably as slow as a sub, but since it cannot submerge fully, it will be as detectable as surface ship, not to mention it lacks all sensors associated as surface ship, so it has to operate with other surface ships in groups, so that means it became target.

Why not just make an surface arsenal ship, or a pure VLS nuclear sub?
 

Lethe

Captain
It is .... very exciting time ... very innovative! .. wondering how would the SAM or ASM know the targets as there is no radar on the ship. Perhaps other ships or satellites will guide the SAM or ASM to the target? similar to SSK/SSN ASM/SAM..... China has enough satellites to do the job?

Yes, I think it would rely entirely on offboard targetting. That has always been the idea behind the arsenal ship concept -- to function as a giant missile magazine. It's not like the Ohio SSGNs (the closest thing to an arsenal ship in existence today) are doing any targetting themselves.
 
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Blitzo

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This look like a terrible idea, it has the worst of both surface ship and subs.

It's probably as slow as a sub, but since it cannot submerge fully, it will be as detectable as surface ship, not to mention it lacks all sensors associated as surface ship, so it has to operate with other surface ships in groups, so that means it became target.

Why not just make an surface arsenal ship, or a pure VLS nuclear sub?

I don't think the second paragraph is necessarily true.

First of all, being able to semi submerge with only its conning tower/s surfaced, its radar cross section would be significantly smaller than a comparably sized surface ship with a similar number of VLS, unless you expend substantial funds on trying to reduce the RCS of a large surface ship, and the end result will probably still have a larger RCS than a semi submerged ship with only its conning towers exposed.
The purpose would not be to make the semi submersible ship have zero surface RCS, but rather to have a cost effective way of significantly reducing its surface RCS, by submerging most of the ship under the waves, instead of a conventional ship where most of it is above the waves at the waterline and forced to use extensive RCS reduction measures to make it a little more survivable.

As for lacking sensors of a surface ships -- that is a fairly standard idea for arsenal ships. Arsenal ships are not meant to be multi purpose ships with capable sensors, they're meant to be ships that have a lot of missile tubes and get the vast majority of their targeting data from other sources, and in a high intensity warfare situation will likely operate as part of a larger task force.
I think such a ship would not be intended to operate alone and stealthy against a high capability foe, but instead would operate as part of a larger task force against a high capability foe, and its RCS reduction measure/semi submersible nature is meant to make it a smaller target that's harder to accurately track/id/engage within that task force. Arsenal ships are generally not thought of as multipurpose surface combatants with their own high capability organic sensors, but rather as minimally crewed self propelled missile barges.

This
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, I think gives a good rundown of the basic hallmarks of an arsenal ship.
Interestingly, the author says it would be of interest to reduce such a ship's RCS, and says "A long series of VLSs encased in a largely submerged hull would be optimal" as well as: "the ship’s freeboard should be as low as possible and not have a substantial superstructure—think of an iceberg with its top flattened. The most efficient method of doing this is by having the capability of ballasting down, similar to that of amphibious warships. With ballast tanks, voids, and fuel tanks along its underwater hull, and an internal double hull, a modicum of protection might be achieved against torpedoes and mines." The author envisions a mostly conventional hull surface ship with low freeboard that can be achieved by ballasts.... BUT, of course a natural but more extreme extension of this idea, is to have a semi submersible hull, which leaves only the conning towers exposed on the top, to further reduce RCS.



as for why not a pure VLS nuclear submarine -- a SSGN fills a different role to an arsenal ship, as it is a much more stealthy and much more capable but also much more expensive vessel that would likely operate alone rather than as within a task force when fighting against a high capability foe. I'm sure China is interested in SSGNs, but those construction slots at this stage are probably better used for building real SSNs and SSBNs first, or at least to give a few SLCM VLSes for their SSN classes.


Again, I'd like to emphasize I don't necessarily believe this project is definitely real, but I think there are enough indications to warrant discussion over the rationale and purpose of such a ship if it turns out to be real.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
If this thing can justr dive 5 meters or whatever the snorkels and periscope allows, it will be plenty protected against anti ship sea-skimmers. Remember, if a missile crashes into water, it will most probably desintegrate (at 900kph, water-surface is like a concrete wall to the lightly built missiles), not to mention that most missile warhead fuzes wont actually work under water. Also, it is kinda a far assumption that even with top-attack profile, an anti ship missile that sees no overwater target for its active radar and ImIR seeker can actually know the exact location of the submersed ship and dive down upon it.

What I would think is that the US would try to counter this with the development of a long range torpedo carrying anti ship/ASW missile - but those will inevitably be either slower, high-fying and thus less stealthy or rather big and vulnerable to SAM (as well as taking more space on the USN combattants).

Seems like the Chinese have developed the antidote well before the poison itself.

ASW.jpg
 

Tyloe

Junior Member
Would this notional project be treated as a surface asset since it can't do lone deterrent patrols by itself and perhaps need escorts?
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
9 month on 12 a Chinese submarine in Indian Ocean

The Indian Navy is watching closely a Chinese submarine that could head for Karachi

India is closely monitoring the Chinese submarine currently sailing in the Indian Ocean. He probably headed for Karachi after being denied permission to dock in Colombo.


The Yuan class submarine was spotted by a Poseidon-8I maritime patrol aircraft as soon as it crossed the Straits of Malacca on April 19 and 20.

Officially, he is part of a group sent by the Chinese Navy to combat piracy in the west of the Indian Ocean. Since December 2013, the Chinese navy regularly sends submarines, both conventional and nuclear, in the Indian Ocean. "The pretext is to participate in the fight against piracy in the Gulf of Aden. But what role can submarines play against pirates and their dhows, "asks a source from the Indian Ministry of Defense.

So far, the Indian Navy has spotted 7 Chinese submarines in ocean India. The first was a nuclear submarine of the Shang class that remained in the Indian Ocean from December 2013 to February 2014. "Two Chinese submarines, one classic and one nuclear, come every year for 3 months in the Indian Ocean. They generally enter through the Straits of Malacca, where they have to surface because of the shallow depths, and come out through the Sound of Sound, "she added.

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