PLA missile defense system

rhino123

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Lets face it this way... China has nukes... US has nuke... quite a number of other nations have or suspected to have nukes.

So it doesn't matter how many nukes each of these countries possess. Once a nuke is fire... doesn't matter if it hit the intented target or not, that country would retaliate with nuke (if he has it). Or the countries near it who have nukes would retaliate because no one is sure where the nuke is actually targeting at.

So it will be a nuclear war... and it will end the whole world... So my point is, even if China only has 1 ICBM that can reach US, it is enough for her to enter an uneasy truce with US and the rest of the world.

So in conclusion, the best missiles defence for China, in my opinion is having nuclear weaponry... doesn't really need huge quantity of it... just a few and that is enough.
 
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rhino123

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Oh... one more thing... what is the deal with all the countries that had been pressing china for having more transparency in their nuclear weapon program... The same question should be shoot back at them...

Did anyone know of the actual pace and scope of US nuclear weapon programes, India nuclear weapon program, UK, France nuclear program and most of all... Israel nuclear weapon program (which many suspected they have, but is there anyone who actually insisted them on telling?)

So if all these statistic are not show, then what rights do they have in pressing China for announcing their nuclear weapon programs?
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
Well, according to the Chinese government's website:
"Among the nuclear-weapon states, China has performed the least number of nuclear tests and possesses the smallest nuclear arsenal. It has never taken part in any nuclear arms race or deployed any nuclear weapons outside its territory. "

This would put China's nuclear arsenal below 200.

However, if add up the estimated production capacity of Chinese
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It's pretty clear just a single year of production would product enough nuclear material for 200 weapons, and most of those facilities has being running for at least 20 years. (Of course a good portion of it is used for purposes, but just 5% used for weapons would blow the 200 number away.

So this leave several possibilities:
1. Chinese are lying, they actually have thousands of nukes hidden in a cave somewhere. [But then what's point of having a deterrent if nobody knows about it. (to borrow from Dr. Strangelove) ]
2. The 200 number is active nuclear weapon, China, like Russia and US and reduced its nuclear arsenal after the Cold War. [It's possible, then why didn't China use it as leverage in international negotiations?]
3. China used the same
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as the new START treaty. [Likely to be used as the excuse if it's ever discovered that China's arsenal is more than 200 :D]
4. China has lots of fuel ready for nuclear weapons, but never processed into weapons (or recycled back from weapon, if #2 is valid). This saves the cost maintain a huge stockpile of do-nothing weapon, but allows for expansion if tensions rise. [This seems most plausible scenario, and it will kept the world guess about the exact number of weapons. And it would at least offer a deterrent if external tensions ever get as bad as the late 60's for China.]
 

Martian

Senior Member
In my view, China is taking a middle-path toward nuclear parity with the U.S. and Russia. China is not engaging in a rapid nuclear-force modernization and expansion. However, China is also not sitting still.

Instead, China is slowly creeping up on the Americans and Russians. China has built two new Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs, each carrying 12 Julang-2 SLBMs. Also, China has built more road-mobile ICBMs. This seems to be a fair compromise that the Americans can accept. The U.S. won't complain if China adds approximately 10 to 30 ICBMs a year to her nuclear arsenal.

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"76 Megatons In The Big Parade
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 9/3/2009 7:03 AM CDT

Five new weapon models, including intercontinental ballistic missiles, conventional cruise missiles and medium-range and short-range conventional ballistic missiles, will be shown officially for the first time in China's National Day parade in Beijing in October 1, according to Xinhua. The last such parade was ten years ago, on the 50th anniversary of Communist Party rule.

Quoting an expert from the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Second Artillery Force, responsible for nuclear deterrence and conventional ballistic missiles, the news agency reported that the new weapons would be "second generation" types, already in service with the PLA.

The big potential revelations would be the Dongfeng 41 road-mobile ICBM and the Julang 2 sea-launched ballistic missile - widely discussed outside China, but never seen before.

5dd3e7e2-b7fc-4864-97d2-597356291e91.Large.jpg

Chinese Internet via Armscontrolwonk

This month's DTI - to go live on the website later today - carries a report from a late-July conference on deterrence in Omaha and my op-ed on nuclear weapons. Former deputy defense secretary John Hamre's comment in Omaha that nuclear weapons have been "the subject of a successful campaign of stigmatization" in the West, but not elsewhere, is underscored by the report of the Beijing parade: it's literally impossible to conceive of a parade of nuclear missiles down Pennsylvania Avenue or Whitehall.

I reported some of the news from Omaha here at the time. PLA Col. Yao Yunzhu explained that China's nuclear policy is based on "no first use" and is strictly retaliatory, in response to a nuclear attack. "China differs in this respect from American strategists who talk about nuclear warfighting or escalation control", she added.

China, she said, works towards a "lean and effective" deterrent and will modernize its strategic forces to improve their survivability - hence the development of road- and rail-mobile weapons. Moreover, opaqueness - deliberately concealing its capabilities - is Chinese policy. "With no-first-use and a small arsenal, China depends on opaqueness to keep its deterrent credible, to induce uncertainty in an enemy's cost-benefit calculations."

As I reported a few weeks ago, Col Yunzhu cautioned that ballistic missile defense could represent a problem for China and could drive it to expand its force. Interestingly, a couple of weeks later - at the Space & Missile Defense conference in Huntsville - US STRATCOM leader Gen. Kevin Chilton echoed that comment in regard to US-Japan efforts to deter North Korean nuclear developments. "Our broader concern has to do with Chinese concern," Chilton said, "and the perception of who [BMD] is aimed against.""

jin_class.jpg


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"The Type 094 (NATO reporting name: Jin-class; Chinese: 晋级潜艇) is a new class of ballistic missile submarine developed by the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy. The first-of-class was constructed at Huludao Shipyard in Huludao, Liaoning Province and launched in July 2004. At least two are confirmed to have been launched. [1]

In late 2006, a commercial satellite photographed what is believed to be the new Jin-class submarine moored in Xiaopingdao Submarine Base. In comparison with the older Type 092-class submarine, it has been elongated from 122m to 133m in order to house the missile tubes and part of the reactor.[4]

220px-JL-1_and_JL-2.PNG

JL-1 and JL-2 Missiles.

The Type 094 submarine is capable of carrying 12 of the more modern JL-2s[5] with a range of approximately 14,000 km, and is capable of targeting all of the Western Hemisphere, from close to the Chinese coast. The Type 094 is believed by some western analysts to incorporate a great deal of Russian technology and will replace the Type 092 submarine (NATO reporting name: Xia class) for the People's Liberation Army Navy.

In its 2008 assessment of China's military, the United States Department of Defense estimated that one Type 094 "may soon enter service", and that "up to five" would be in service by 2010.[5] The United States government has expressed concern over these submarines, saying that the Chinese government has not been transparent enough about the program.[6]"
 
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rhino123

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VIP Professional
In its 2008 assessment of China's military, the United States Department of Defense estimated that one Type 094 "may soon enter service", and that "up to five" would be in service by 2010.[5] The United States government has expressed concern over these submarines, saying that the Chinese government has not been transparent enough about the program.[6]"

It always make me laugh when I saw what the analyst or government of other countries been blasting China. a few simple questions, "Who know exactly the status of US submarine program, the exact number of them and of which class, the exact technical specification. The exact type and specification of missiles these submarines carries. The acoustic signature and sensories of these submarines?"

If they never give out these information, can we also said that the US government has not been transparent enough about their submarine programs?

And by 'transparent enough', what is the exact definition? Was it to tell the world the weakness, strenght, acostic signature, where the boats were, the type of weapons, the missiles' characteristic, spec, etc?

Doesn't this always make you wanted to laugh?
 

Martian

Senior Member
It always make me laugh when I saw what the analyst or government of other countries been blasting China. a few simple questions, "Who know exactly the status of US submarine program, the exact number of them and of which class, the exact technical specification. The exact type and specification of missiles these submarines carries. The acoustic signature and sensories of these submarines?"

If they never give out these information, can we also said that the US government has not been transparent enough about their submarine programs?

And by 'transparent enough', what is the exact definition? Was it to tell the world the weakness, strenght, acostic signature, where the boats were, the type of weapons, the missiles' characteristic, spec, etc?

Doesn't this always make you wanted to laugh?

It does make everyone laugh because it's obvious that the U.S. government is unhappy that China is building modern nuclear weapons.

navy2.jpg

China's most-powerful Jin-class SSBN nuclear deterrent.

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"China’s Nuclear Option
April 26, 2010

By Richard Weitz

Chinese policymakers say the country’s rapidly modernizing nuclear force is nothing to fear. They could do more to prove it."

chinese_nuclear_missiles.jpg

China's road-mobile ICBMs.
 
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cloyce

Junior Member
The Type 094 submarine is capable of carrying 12 of the more modern JL-2s[5] with a range of approximately 14,000 km, and is capable of targeting all of the Western Hemisphere, from close to the Chinese coast. The Type 094 is believed by some western analysts to incorporate a great deal of Russian technology and will replace the Type 092 submarine (NATO reporting name: Xia class) for the People's Liberation Army Navy.

Is it true!? :eek:

Hell! 14000km!
Can you link me source?
 

rhino123

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VIP Professional
Is it true!? :eek:

Hell! 14000km!
Can you link me source?

The basic variant of the JL-2 missile had a range of around 8000km to 8600km (max).

But there are two more variants, JL-2 "Jia" and JL-2 "Yi".

JL-2 "Jia"

NATO code: CSS-N-4ModI
Structure: 2 stages
Fuel: 1st: solid-fueled; 2nd: liquid-fueled
Operational range: 12,000 km
Mass: 23+ t
Warhead: Single or MIRV; 6~8 Nuclear 250 kt /thermo
Guidance system: Inertial + stellar update
Accuracy: 80+ CEP (with satellite guidance)
Platform: SSBN
Designer: The Second Research Institute of the Ministry of Aerospace Industry
Manufacturer: CASTC

JL-2 "Yi"

NATO code: CSS-N-4ModII
Structure: 2 stages
Fuel: 1st: solid-fueled; 2nd: liquid-fueled
Operational range: 14,000 km
Mass: 23+ t
Warhead: Single or MIRV; ~10 (max) Nuclear 250 kt /thermo
Guidance system: Inertial + stellar update
Accuracy: 40+ CEP (with satellite guidance)
Platform: SSBDesigner: The Second Research Institute
Manufacturer: CASTC

One of them have 12000km range and the other had 14000km range.

Reference:

1)
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2)
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3)
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Martian

Senior Member
Is it true!? :eek:

Hell! 14000km!
Can you link me source?

rhino123's excellent post above contains the detailed technical information that you seek. The following is what I have previously written.

Estimated range of 14,000 km for the JL-2 is at the upper range of estimates, but it is still close to the 12,000 km range for the Trident II. The extra 2,000 km may be explained by a slightly bigger JL-2 missile or arming the missile with a smaller warhead to reduce the weight.

A third possible explanation is that, since the JL-2 was built 16 years after the Trident II, the JL-2 may have been designed with improved lightweight (e.g. composite) materials and/or been lavished with a lot more supercomputer time on its design.

A fourth possible explanation is that the JL-2 has only two stages, instead of the three stages for the Trident II. "Such design simplifies the structure of the missile and largely reduces missile's overall weight by reducing one stage." (See newslink below)

I selected Wikipedia as a source because I wanted to quote that two Type 094 submarines have been "confirmed to be launched" and the "United States government has expressed concern over these submarines, saying that the Chinese government has not been transparent enough about the program." Feel free to adjust the JL-2 range downward to "11000-12000 km" to match the Trident II's range.

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"In late 1980s and 1990s, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering named Wang Zhenhua (王振华) proposed a new theory typically for the JL-2 SLBM, called "(Free) Relaxation into Trajectory" (自由入轨).

Based on this theory, JL-2 only needs two stages to achieve its intercontinental status instead of three. Conventionally, any type of ICBMs has three phases to finish its flight: (i) the boost phase, (ii) the mid-course phase, and (iii) the terminal phase. Wang's idea is to combine the first and the second phases into one, the passive-boost phase (助推段). Plus the final atmospheric reentry phase, therefore, in total the JL-2's trajectory only has two phases and two stages.

The first phase is based on the first solid-fueled rocket engine (first stage). The first stage passively launches the missile out of the atmosphere, and accelerates it into a speed in between the first (7.9 km/s) and second (11.2 km/s) escape velocities. When the missile is in this transition state, the first stage booster sheds off, and the missile automatically adapts its "free" trajectory and further reaches its maximium altitude (without a constant velocity); the dominating force here is just the earth's gravity. The second stage engine (liquid-fueled) then starts working.

Normally, SLBM has three stages. Such design simplifies the structure of the missile and largely reduces missile's overall weight by reducing one stage. Additionally, it increases the atmospheric reentry velocity, which leads to more difficult interception, such as, by the NMD."

I wrote the following in December of last year.

"Another launch of Russia’s Bulava missile ended with a failure." "Russia has held ten test launches of the Bulava rocket since 2003: five of them proved to be unsuccessful." "Experts say that several consecutive unsuccessful launches of the missile endanger the whole project." See
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American publications believe the Julang 2 is comparable to the American Trident SLBM.

"The JL-2 is comparable in size and performance to the American Trident C-4 long-range multiple-warhead three-stage solid-fuel missile." See
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or
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"According to American experts, the JL-2, like China's intercontinental surface-to-surface Dongfeng-31 (DF-31), tested successfully this summer, is equipped with technology adapted from the Trident D-5." See
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"The Trident D-5 has a maximum range of 12,000 km (7,456 miles), similar to that of silo-based systems, and has a payload as large as 2,800 kg. Its payload carries a Post-Boost Vehicle (PBV) which can carry 8 to 12 Reentry Vehicles (RVs), though the first Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START I) limits the number to eight. These RVs can either be the Mk 4 with a W76 100 kT yield warhead or the Mk 5, which has a W88 475 kT yield warhead. The missile is almost certainly equipped with countermeasures. The system uses an inertial navigation system combined with a stellar reference system that provides an extremely high accuracy of 90 m CEP. The missile has a length of 13.42 m, a width of 2.11 m, and a launch weight of 59,090 kg. It uses a three-stage solid propellant engine."

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"China Prepares To Test New ICBM

Beijing (AFP) December 7, 1999 - China will imminently test the Julang 2, an intercontinental sea-to-surface ballistic missile with an estimated range at least 9,000 kilometres (5580 miles) that will boost its nuclear deterent capability, foreign military experts in Beijing said Tuesday.

"The test is imminent," said an expert who asked to not be named, but added the missile, capable of hitting any city in the United States and Europe, could be equipped with a small nuclear warhead.

According to Monday's Washington Times newspaper, the transit of Chinese Golf class submarines from southern areas to the north of the country, carried out last month, signals the approach of the JL-2 test.

The newspaper also put the range of the Jl-2 at nearly 12,000 kilometres.

China's Foreign Ministry downplayed the report Tuesday, and said China was entitled to develop military programs for its own defence, dismissing talk of a "China threat"."
 
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Martian

Senior Member
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"Propellant 2-stage
solid-fueled 1st stage
liquid-fueled 2nd stage

Operational range
8600 km (JL-2)[1][2]
12000 km (JMA)[1][2]
14000 km (JMB)[1][2]
...
History

The whole JL-2 project lasts roughly about one decade, till present. The original designation of the project was so-called "New DongFeng Goes Undersea" ("新东风下海"), by the COSTIND and CMC. The project was co-held by the First and Second Research Institutes of the Ministry of Aerospace Industry (defunct, see CNSA)

At 10:20 AM, 22nd Dec, 2002, the first ship of a new type of SSBN was formally launched by China in Huludao, which now is known as Type 094 (Jin-Class). But, its SLBM was, just as convention, lagging behind. JL-2 has three subtypes, the initial experimental one, the "Jia" (甲, Chinese literally means "The First", or "I"), and the "Yi" (乙, Chinese literally means "The Second", or "II"). The codes for "Jia" and "Yi" are JMA and JMB, respectively. The tests happened of JMA/B are listed like below:

* JMA: Land-based tests, 3 times; launched from a base in Shanxi, most likely the Taiyuan Satellite Launch Center or nearby; 2001; successful.
* JMB: Sea-based, 8 times; launched near Dalian, by the modified Golf-class diesel-powered ballistic missile submarine; 2002; successful.
...
JL-2 "Yi"

[1][2]

* NATO code: CSS-N-4ModII
* Structure: 2 stages
* Fuel: 1st: solid-fueled; 2nd: liquid-fueled
* Operational range: 14,000 km
* Mass: 23+ t
* Warhead: Single or MIRV; ~10 (max) Nuclear 250 kt /thermo
* Guidance system: Inertial + stellar update
* Accuracy: 40+ CEP (with satellite guidance)
* Platform: SSBN
* Designer: The Second Research Institute
* Manufacturer: CASTC"
 
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