PLA missile defense system

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
As emphasis by all of my post, why I think that ABM is quite ineffective at this present moment, is that it is deployed in China mainland. It will be like bringing the war to China soil, which even if you succeed in the end, still it was going to cost alot for your general public.

Why I think US's defence is more forbiddable at present moment, is that the defence umbrella that was being set up was not on her mainland but on the grounds of their allies which actually surround China and Russia. So before Chinese missiles are to leave China airspace, there is a good chance of it being knock off sky, when a missile reached above your atmosphere, it is practically too late to do much, even if you knock the missile off... if the missile is nuclear tipped or contain Multiple warheads, it would be extremely difficult to knock them off... plus the subsequence nuclear blast, even above your atmosphere, is not something that is very desirable.

China's ABM however, as mentioned and stressed a couple of time already, is on mainland... so the difference is that she had to wait for the missile to approach her and neared her (even above atmosphere) to be able to hit the missile.

Not a good tactic if you ask me. And by that I mean passive defence.

If China could develope a much bigger and more capable blue water navy (I will not go into nuclear now, as explained in my previous post), a stronger and more capable air force, then she could do the following,

1) Launch offensive strikes first, before enemy could react.
2) Deploy her ships further away from mainland in what I call a spider-web method.
3) Deploy ship base anti-missile system to provide multi-tiers defence.

With that opponent's missiles will have to pass through multi-layer of defences before it could hit China mainland.

Unless the opponent would choose to attack all of China's ships and submarines at once, it simply is quite difficult to counter the Chinese defence.

Also with the deployment of a larger and more capable airforce with more AWAC, ELINT, and whatever system in place, coupled with better radars thingies, satellites (space technology), supported by carriers, and escorted by larger and more powerful destroyers and cruisers, then they could even carry up aerial interception of ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and stuff like that.

It is all an integrated package and not just developing ground base ABM in China mainland and hope that these kinetic kill vehicles are enough to knock enemy's missiles out.

And by that, I mean active defence.

And how to you achieve that? First resources had to be poured in to upgrade the current Navy and air force... and these resources are huge...

Second, to build larger amount of nuclear or conventional ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and their carriers (submarines and/or ground based mobile launchers). This was mainly to counter for opponent's own ABM system which could be everywhere around China.

Third, is the developement of the ABM system... but doesn't actually need to be ground base or based on kinetic kill vehicles thingies which was large and very expensive to maintain... developement was to focus, as many had mentioned before, on energy weaponries. Of course before that could happen, more radar and miniaturization of the electronic components needed to be done first... also more satellites, AWAC and other support equipments and machineries needed to be done first... which again go back to the first two phases.
 

Harley-One

Banned Idiot
how many warheads does China have anyway?

Suspense, intrigue, and a brain storm, that's the beauty of it all isn't it?

All I know is [if this retired Chinese General crapped on his own as he did rather than played the part the voice of the leadership, Beijing is guaranteed to take his balls out and feed it to wolves :D:D:D...

With all the goodies in China to be had, I doubt if this General would want his balls taken out roflol...:D

the other questions that people always talk about but can never answer are such as what is the real range of DF31A (just read an article yesterday that says its 10000km, but ppl pointed out that since the size didnt change it prolly isnt gonna improve that much rom 8000km range) and JL-2 and whether there are nay MIRVed missiles in its inventory.
Yes, more suspense intrigue, I read it too...

In fact, I also read that there were two duds in the latest JL-2 underwater tests recently, but still, that JL-2 is an awesome and threatening sight isn't it :D?


Scenario is this:

Before Beijing allowed google to capture images of the 094 Jin; before Beijing knocked down one of its own satellites in broad daylight for the Americans to witness first hand; before Beijing announced the unique zig zagging flight pattern of the DF-21A and have it published throughout the www; before Beijing declassified the J-10... The West never would have thought we were able to do all this in such a short time frame now would they? Now, latest is the EU is scrapping its arm's embargo on us. Why???? It's because we don't need their technology anymore.

There'll be more surprises ahead. Beijing have not let us in on EVERYTHING as yet. There are more surprises -- way more...
 
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Roger604

Senior Member
how many warheads does China have anyway? the other questions that people always talk about but can never answer are such as what is the real range of DF31A (just read an article yesterday that says its 10000km, but ppl pointed out that since the size didnt change it prolly isnt gonna improve that much rom 8000km range) and JL-2 and whether there are nay MIRVed missiles in its inventory.

China has been a nuclear power for so long, and its missile / space technology is top notch.

My estimate is that China has roughly 70 SLBM on roughly 6 Type 094s. Plus roughly 120 DF-31A and 60 DF-25. All the above with MIRVs. But China does not mate warheads with missiles during peacetime.

So, roughly 250 mobile nuclear missiles (with roughly 1000 warheads) patrolling at any time. Plus the old stockpile of liquid fueled DF-5A and DF-4 hidden in mountain caves / silos.

China probably retains the ability to crank out large number of tactical nukes to be mounted on PGM (LS-6) or cruse missile (CJ-10K) on short notice if needed.
 
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Harley-One

Banned Idiot
China has been a nuclear power for so long, and its missile / space technology is top notch.

My estimate is that China has roughly 100 SLBM on roughly 6 Type 094s. Plus roughly 200 DF-31A. All the above with MIRVs. But China does not mate warheads with missiles during peacetime.

So, roughly 300 mobile nuclear missiles patrolling at any time. Plus the old stockpile of liquid fueled DF-5A and DF-4 hidden in mountain caves.

China probably retains the ability to crank out large number of tactical nukes to be mounted on PGM (LS-6) or cruse missile (CJ-10K) on short notice if needed.

The last I read, Roger, via China.com, and that's from the 2002 time line, is that China's plans are for 8 boat @12 tubes each with 4-MIRV's per tube. That mathematically works out to 384 and that does not include the lone 092 which is another 12. But, let's rough it out here as 300 as some might be decoys and some might be single warhead DF's... However...

... with [the 16/24 tube 096 probably covertly on sea trial (speculative)], yes, the number of 094's I expect would be cut to 6 boat range as two are clearly visible at this one base in the Shanghai (Hulou Dao???) vicinity; one is suggested to have been spotted in Dalian; and another googled at Sanya... I presume the other two would be berthed in its hardened cavern hidden from sight.

And, with how Beijing had confidently displayed the DF-31A's in the National Days Parade last year, I speculate road mobile DF-31's are anywhere between 200-300 units to include both the DF-31 & the DF-31A's. These two listings (MIRV's considered) should give us the number of anywhere between 600 to 700 warheads. Then there are the silo based which I would speculate is an additional 100-200 units. These are all of ICBM class.

Our Aegis class destroyers are no small potato either though I have never done any research on them but I would presume that nuke cruise tipped missiles would be one of the items in their inventory.

DF-15/21/25's, my opinion, are besides the point because I believe those are more for regional purposes and hence not armed with nukes but convertible between conventional to nuke warheads with the exception of the DF-25's on our western front facing the Himalayas because you never know how obsessed Himalayians can be.

China must've also made plenty provisions for theater (battlefield) operation nukes and this number I doubt if anyone will ever tell...
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Our Aegis class destroyers are no small potato either though I have never done any research on them but I would presume that nuke cruise tipped missiles would be one of the items in their inventory.

I cannot dispute with most of what you have said in your previous point Harley... and so I will not continue to humiliate myself trying to argue. However I am wondering... with a nation the size of China... with only a handful of Aegis class destroyers... (btw, US had around 50+), no crusier, one semi-completed carrier... I wouldn't call that a world class navy would you?

And up till now... she only had one LPD, which is, in my view very, very limited. Thus in my opinion, China's navy is seriously not something to be too proud about. Of course do not compare China's navy to South Eastern nation's navies... but if comparing to navies like Japan, South Korea and some of the European navies (France, Germany and England), I seriously doubt that she could be amounted to much.

Even, as claimed by yourself and many others, her nuclear arsenal are enough to cause quite some harvoc, but like some had mentioned, it is not a weapon to be used until last resort.

And we must admit too that the best power projection element in a country is their Navy. It is an element that could actually transport your men, equipment and aircrafts all over the world.
 

Harley-One

Banned Idiot
with a nation the size of China... with only a handful of Aegis class destroyers... (btw, US had around 50+), no crusier, one semi-completed carrier... I wouldn't call that a world class navy would you?

That is precisely why it is that ever since the 90's Taiwan Straight Crises, that two factions have emerges in both the Chinese military establishment and Chinese surfers in www (EIN borad. I think many in this site too have been there when it was free) over whether carriers or anti-ship missile and submarines (we have up to 60 U boats) should be China's first of priority...

The latter of course won out over the carrier faction even as the Varyag was being towed back to China therefore your second strike capability is in good hands because the 150 to 200 nukes per year guesstimate is not far fetch but very much achievable because China probably poured everything she got into warheads and delivery systems at the time.

Regardless, my presumption is this: Listen to all sources and not just what's published in "none-Chinese" medias, the following for examples are good clues...

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[Size=-4]Read carefully and use your imaginations (smarts I call it) cos this guy makes sense.[/Size]

Everything we see comes first from chatters like this and not from what's published in CNN or BBC...
 
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Martian

Senior Member
I think the whole concept of interceptor based BMD is really overblown. It's a highly inefficient and difficult way to intercept missiles compared to lasers, and it's only a matter of a few years before lasers will be completely able to do the job. All of these billions of dollars spent on missiles made to intercept ballistic missiles have been wasted basically.

On a clear day, you might be right. What if it's a cloudy or rainy day? The laser energy will be dissipated and useless. Also, what if the incoming missile has ablative armor?

In conclusion, a kinetic interceptor is the most effective method to intercept an incoming missile.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
On a clear day, you might be right. What if it's a cloudy or rainy day? The laser energy will be dissipated and useless. Also, what if the incoming missile has ablative armor?

In conclusion, a kinetic interceptor is the most effective method to intercept an incoming missile.

Actually, why do we just limit ourselves to lasers? Laser is a good technology... but we do not need to always be looking at lasers only. If we could expand our knowledge to other energy weapon such as Particle Beam Weaponry to be fitted on larger aircraft like the Tu-124 or Yu-9 or Yu-8, we could provide a good defensive measure too. The provided reference is only saying about the concept of the particle beam weapon, but if we can expand the technology, it can be use as offensive and defensive weapon and we will not just be limited to lasers.

Reference:

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Martian

Senior Member
Regarding the discussion on whether China has an adequate number of nuclear ICBMs, I don't believe that this problem has been overlooked by the competent government of China.

1) China has the 5,000 KM "Underground Great Wall." You can hide a lot of ICBMs in a 5,000 KM underground facility.

2) The 20 silo-based "city-buster" ICBMs (i.e. 1 to 4 megatons) alone can destroy 20 American cities. If you annihilate the top 20 American cities, you are talking about roughly 30 million dead plus nuclear fallout. This is called nuclear deterrence.

3) As Harely has already said, China has mobile ICBM launchers and Type 094 submarines carrying JL-2 SLBMs.

4) Nuclear-capable DH-10 cruise missiles have been added to the Chinese nuclear arsenal.

5) Have you ever watched the movie "WarGames?" A nuclear war between Russia and the U.S. will cause both nations to launch an all-out attack on all countries of the world. Russia and the U.S. will not foolishly destroy only each other and let China become the de facto superpower.

Similarly, in a nuclear exchange between the U.S. and China, China has plenty of thermonuclear SRBMs and IRBMs (especially the ones located in Tibet). China will "wipe out" most Russian cities. In retaliation, the Russians will take everyone else with them. Just as it was depicted in WarGames, Russian nuclear missiles will radiate to every major city in the world. Everybody dies, except for the lucky few in underground military facilities built to withstand a nuclear war.

In essence, China can "borrow" the Russian nuclear arsenal in the final exchange against the U.S. The Russians are not going to let the U.S. become the de facto superpower survivor.
 

Martian

Senior Member
Actually, why do we just limit ourselves to lasers? Laser is a good technology... but we do not need to always be looking at lasers only. If we could expand our knowledge to other energy weapon such as Particle Beam Weaponry to be fitted on larger aircraft like the Tu-124 or Yu-9 or Yu-8, we could provide a good defensive measure too. The provided reference is only saying about the concept of the particle beam weapon, but if we can expand the technology, it can be use as offensive and defensive weapon and we will not just be limited to lasers.

Reference:

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Particle beam weapons have the same problem as lasers.

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"Beam absorbed by obscuration in the air

A laser beam or particle beam passing through air can be absorbed or scattered by rain, snow, dust, fog, smoke, or similar visual obstructions that a bullet would easily brush aside. This effect adds to blooming and worsens the efficiency of the weapon by wasting more energy into the atmosphere."
 
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