PLA ICBM Force in 2016

swimmerXC

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I believe for the ICBMS they use stellar navigation and inertial navigation system, or maybe GPS-aided inertial guidance
Here's a quote
* Inertial guidance. The simplest principle for guidance is the law of inertia. In aiming a basketball at a basket, an attempt is made to give the ball a trajectory that will terminate in the basket. However, once the ball is released, the shooter has no further control over it. If he has aimed incorrectly, or if the ball is touched by another person, it will miss the bas-ket. However, it is possible for the ball to be incorrectly aimed and then have another person touch it to change its course so it will hit the basket. In this case, the second player has provided a form of guidance. The inertial guidance system sup-plies the intermediate push to get the missile back on the proper trajectory. The inertial guidance method is used for the same purpose as the preset method and is actually a refinement of that method. The inertially guided missile also receives programmed informa-tion prior to launch. Although there is no electromagnetic contact between the launching site and the missile after launch, the missile is able to make corrections to its flight path with amazing precision, controlling the flight path with accelerometers that are mounted on a gyro-stabilized platform. All in-flight accelerations are continuously measured by this arrangement, and the missile attitude control generates corresponding correction signals to maintain the proper trajectory. The use of inertial guidance takes much of the guesswork out of long-range missile delivery. The unpredictable outside forces working on the missile are continuously sensed by the accelerometers. The genera-ted solution enables the missile to continuously correct its flight path. The inertial method has proved far more reliable than any other long-range guidance method developed to date.
* Celestial Reference. A celestial navigation guidance system is a system designed for a predetermined path in which the missile course is adjusted continuously by reference to fixed stars. The system is based on the known apparent positions of stars or other celestial bodies with respect to a point on the surface of the earth at a given time. Navigation by fixed stars and the sun is highly desirable for long-range missiles since its accuracy is not dependent on range. The missile must be provided with a horizontal or a vertical reference to the earth, automatic star-tracking telescopes to determine star elevation angles with respect to the reference, a time base, and navigational star tables mechanically or electrically recorded. A computer in the missile continuously compares star observations with the time base and the navigational tables to determine the missile's present position. From this, the proper signals are computed to steer the missile correctly toward the target. The missile must carry all this complicated equipment and must fly above the clouds to assure star visibility. Celestial guidance (also called stellar guidance) was used for the Mariner (unmanned spacecraft) interplanetary mission to the vicinity of Mars and Venus. ICBM and SLBM systems at present use celestial guidance.
* Command Guidance Multi-source radio signals that allow a triangulation of position offer an alterna-tive to acceleration measurements. Advanced missile powers dropped radio guidance in the 1960’s and switched to autonomous inertial measuring units, which are carried onboard the missile. The United States considered radio guidance again in the late 1980’s for mobile missiles but dropped the idea in favor of a Global Positioning System (GPS). A radio guidance system could transmit signals from the launch site, or an accurate transmitter array near the launch site to create the signals. Radio command and control schemes, because of the immediate presence of a radio signal when the system is turned on, alert defenses that a missile launch is about to occur. And performance for these systems degrades because of the rocket plume and radio noise. Also, these systems are very much subject to the effects of jamming or false signals.
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IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Can some one enlighten me what targetting systems the Chinese Ballastic Missiles use? What is the Navigation equipment used?

The older ICBMs use Inertial and Celestial reference. The newer ones use Inertial with GPS.

Shorter range ones like the DF-21 will use Inertial with terminal radar guidance.

Even shorter range ones (I don't know if Chinese nukes use this, but I'll throw it in anyways), like the Iskander TacBall, uses Inertial and terminal IR/Optical reference.

As you might have noticed, pretty much all BMs use Inertial, the newer ones use GPS and the older ones use the stars.
 

kroko

Senior Member
PLA ICBM force in 2016 would be

30 DF-5A/B MIRV
150 DF-31A MIRV
100 JL-2A/B MIRV with 7-8 094/096 Subs

Theres no way that china will have that many ICBMs by 2016. Its ICBM production has been very small. Far less than what was expected years ago (when this thread was opened)

I think its because they give little priority to them (either because you cant really win a war with nukes, or they dont have confidence on second artillery to handle so many ICBMs, or they are afraid of the political fallout of going near-superpower nuke numbers)
 

Blitzo

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Theres no way that china will have that many ICBMs by 2016. Its ICBM production has been very small. Far less than what was expected years ago (when this thread was opened)

I think its because they give little priority to them (either because you cant really win a war with nukes, or they dont have confidence on second artillery to handle so many ICBMs, or they are afraid of the political fallout of going near-superpower nuke numbers)

I can't imagine the 2nd Arty is somehow unable to handle so many ICBMs... It's not like it's new technology or something. But if numbers are smaller than expected (and we don't even know anything close to real numbers for recent years, keep in mind) they probably will not be for the reasons you mentioned either.
Nukes are for deterrence, and the PRC never wanted to "win" a war with nukes... It was to avoid war, and that's a given for every country with nukes. And if there was the need for large nuke numbers they wouldn't care about the political fall out. There was and is currently no need, therefore there are no massive numbers of them -- simple as that.

And China's always had a stance of minimal deterrence and no first use, though they have deviated slightly on occasion, but that's still their official message.

If numbers of ICBM production were low (compared to what we expected, or different to China's current needs), then it is probably due to a change in focus to conventional missiles (AShBM and the like) and spending on other weapons like SRBMS/IRBMs and LACMs, or maybe technical difficulties/cost.
 

Blitzo

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By 2016 I think a force of 50 DF-31 and DF-31A, ~30 JL-2 based on Type 094, and ~15 DF-5 should be a realistic and a reasonable ICBM structure I think...
But do the 094s come under 2nd Arty command or PLAN command, does anyone know? :O
 

kroko

Senior Member
I can't imagine the 2nd Arty is somehow unable to handle so many ICBMs... It's not like it's new technology or something. But if numbers are smaller than expected (and we don't even know anything close to real numbers for recent years, keep in mind) they probably will not be for the reasons you mentioned either.
Nukes are for deterrence, and the PRC never wanted to "win" a war with nukes... It was to avoid war, and that's a given for every country with nukes. And if there was the need for large nuke numbers they wouldn't care about the political fall out. There was and is currently no need, therefore there are no massive numbers of them -- simple as that.

And China's always had a stance of minimal deterrence and no first use, though they have deviated slightly on occasion, but that's still their official message.

If numbers of ICBM production were low (compared to what we expected, or different to China's current needs), then it is probably due to a change in focus to conventional missiles (AShBM and the like) and spending on other weapons like SRBMS/IRBMs and LACMs, or maybe technical difficulties/cost.

Hmm...we know little of second artillery. In order to have 100+ ICBMs they would have to considerably enlarge its capabilities. Remember that PLA likes to play safe in everything it develops (which also can mean: we dont have much confidence in our capabilities). case in point: they keep moving the nuclear warheads from one place to another to reduce the chance of them being destroyed in a surprise attack, because they have so few of them. How credible is the chinese nuclear deterrent?

And yes...the truth is there is a need for a large ICBM force if you are an independent nuclear power. Remember that in the cold war, France and UK and even china relied mostly on USA nuclear deterrent to defend against USSR´s massive arsenal. China no longer has this luxury. If china only fields 30-40 ICBMs and only 3-4 SSBN, its strategic nuclear force is in peril. In a first strike its arsenal can be almost wiped out. Then what?

How can you "avoid war" in this circunstances? in order to have a credible nuclear deterrent, capable of surviving a first strike, you must have numbers. Even USA Congress is worried about the USA-Russia START treaty effects on the USA nuclear strategic arsenal. Imagine china.
 
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IronsightSniper

Junior Member
It's only 2011. 5 years won't turn China into a Nuclear Superpower with stockpiles reminiscent of the Cold War. It's agreeable that China needs a credible nuclear force but 5 years won't make that dream a reality. I'd say at least 10 years.
 

Blitzo

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Hmm...we know little of second artillery. In order to have 100+ ICBMs they would have to considerably enlarge capabilities. Remember that PLA likes to play safe in everything it develops (which also can mean: we dont have much confidence in our capabilities).

Or, we don't have much money so best to keep it safe.
What do you mean by "enlarge capabilities" too? The PLA currently field a large number of IRBMs and SRBMs on TELs and it's not like the technologies are new to them. The only real challenge for fielding large numbers of ICBMs is money.
That last sentence to me actually makes no sense. How does playing it safe in developing weapons have anythign to do with a lack of confidence in capabilities? What capabilities, current or future, industrial or military or what?

case in point: they keep moving the nuclear warheads from one place to another to reduce the chance of them being destroyed in a surprise attack, because they have so few of them. How credible is the chinese nuclear deterrent?

Credible enough to make the enemy think twice about launching a first strike.
And TEL missiles aren't used because "there's so few"... It's so that they're more transportable and less vulnerable to attack. Russia uses TELs for its ICBMs, and they have sh*tloads of missiles.
And we don't know it is 2nd Arty doctrine to move warheads "constantly around" either...

And yes...the thruth is there is need for a large ICBM force if you are an independent nuclear power. Remember that in the cold war France and UK relied mostly on USA nuclear deterrent to defend against USSR massive arsenal. China doesnt have this luxury. If china only fields 30-40 ICBMs and only 3-4 SSBN, its strategic nuclear force is in peril. In a first strike its arsenal can be almost wiped out. Then what?

Sure it's not as robust as the Soviets were during the cold war but the PRC isn't playing a game of MAD with anyone. As long as some nukes will remain after a first strike then it can place the enemy in danger as well regardless of interceptors or what not. The whole idea of minimal deterrence is to have just enough to put the enemy's strategic points at risk which should in turn deter an enemy from attacking in the first place.

Obviously this is because the PRC in the past and at current can not really afford to have an all out arms race, it is one they will lose in one way or another. Maybe in 2050+

How can you "avoid war" in this circunstances? you must have a credible nuclear deterrent, and that means numbers. Even USA Congress is worried about the USA-Russia START treaty effects on the USA nuclear strategic arsenal. Imagine china.

I don't know what circumstances you talk about. Current circumstances are hardly cold war MAD-esque, why should China get drunk on nukes?
If it we got into Cold War II then sure, maybe.

And the US congress argument is ridiculous. They were concerened over US military strength because the number of supercarriers were goign to drop below 11-10 once the USS enterprise was out of service or something a few years ago... Should the PLAN freak out and self implode from madness because they have not even one carrier then? There's a whole different scaling you have to take into account.

The problem is simply money. With the money you have you try to develop as good as you can, and then get as little as needed to deter. They could use some more nukes, yes. Hell the PLA can use more Type 99s, more J-10s and J-11s and J-20s and the PLAN need more 052Cs and carriers than what they have now... or rather what they don't have now.

If you want the nuke balance of power to shift then you should wait for the conventional military balance, the economic balance and overall balance of power between the countries to shift first.

It's only 2011. 5 years won't turn China into a Nuclear Superpower with stockpiles reminiscent of the Cold War. It's agreeable that China needs a credible nuclear force but 5 years won't make that dream a reality. I'd say at least 10 years.

I don't think the PRC wants to be a nuclear superpower with stockpiles like what the US and Soviets had... and what they and the Russians still arguably have today.
I feel the 2nd Arty will keep the minimal deterrence doctrine going for a good long while.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I can't imagine the 2nd Arty is somehow unable to handle so many ICBMs... It's not like it's new technology or something. But if numbers are smaller than expected (and we don't even know anything close to real numbers for recent years, keep in mind) they probably will not be for the reasons you mentioned either.
Nukes are for deterrence, and the PRC never wanted to "win" a war with nukes... It was to avoid war, and that's a given for every country with nukes. And if there was the need for large nuke numbers they wouldn't care about the political fall out. There was and is currently no need, therefore there are no massive numbers of them -- simple as that.

And China's always had a stance of minimal deterrence and no first use, though they have deviated slightly on occasion, but that's still their official message.

If numbers of ICBM production were low (compared to what we expected, or different to China's current needs), then it is probably due to a change in focus to conventional missiles (AShBM and the like) and spending on other weapons like SRBMS/IRBMs and LACMs, or maybe technical difficulties/cost.

FYI ... China has moved from MINIMAL DETERRENCE to LIMITED DETERRENCE a few years ago ... this is a big move
 
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