PLA Ground Forces news, pics and videos

Michaelsinodef said:

If you're gonna be: It's propaganda, can't trust.
Then just get the fck out of here, afterall, can't trust anything from the PLA, right?

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You are misunderstanding what I mean by propaganda. Propaganda is a good thing, but textual propaganda is not as credible as video. Here's an example of what I mean. I have never been able to find a video showing 052d and 055 gun stabilizing during live fire. Simply because of this, I'm always left wondering whether it does have stabilization. The point is not whether the capability exists or not, its whether the audience or adversary are convinced enough of the existence of the capability.

Michaelsinodef said:

Current PLA has both artillery and air superiority over India's military.

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I 100% agree with you on that, but if a conflict was to break out and the casualties start mounting, the public could lose confidence in the leadership and you have yourself an uprising or at least some form of an internal struggle, so widening the gap is still necessary regardless of who has dominance and superiority.

iBBz said:

You are misunderstanding what I mean by propaganda. Propaganda is a good thing, but textual propaganda is not as credible as video. Here's an example of what I mean. I have never been able to find a video showing 052d and 055 gun stabilizing during live fire. Simply because of this, I'm always left wondering whether it does have stabilization. The point is not whether the capability exists or not, its whether the audience or adversary are convinced enough of the existence of the capability.

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Except, it really depends on where we get that 'text info' from.
Some sources are quite simply more credible than others.

iBBz said:

I 100% agree with you on that, but if a conflict was to break out and the casualties start mounting, the public could lose confidence in the leadership and you have yourself an uprising or at least some form of an internal struggle, so widening the gap is still necessary regardless of who has dominance and superiority.

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Uprising my ass, look at like Ukraine or Russia, no real 'uprising' despite many losses.

Also, there's more than enough forces to stabilize stuff internally (police and PAP is more than sufficient).

iBBz said:

I tried to but didn't run into this article at all, but you are right, next time I'll try harder to find more info. The videos are good propaganda, nothing wrong with showing off some of these capabilities, and it could be done without revealing any sensitive information. The article claims the 181 can setup and fire 6 projectiles then move on in three minutes. Why do you think that is? Its because they want to show us but through text. Its still propaganda. That claim is outlandish, not saying its a lie, but it sounds faster than even the fully automated systems and merits video proof, even if its from a camera mounted on the dashboard showing nothing but the truck stopping and the firing sound repeating 6 times then the truck moving. If this claim is true, then I rest my case.

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“Pics or it didn’t happen”?
That’s more ridiculous than the claim of 3 minutes to fire. How is it outlandish? Motors and servos aren’t necessarily moving faster than humans. Think of those automatic lift gates on a car, they move slowly.

How long do you think it takes the crew to jump out of the cab? 20s? How long do you think it takes to open the container for a shell? 15s? Moving a shell from the storage container to between the trails? 30s? There is a crew of 6, so some of this will definitely happen concurrently even if some of the crew is laying the gun. Again, laying the gun is probably taking up the most time because moving the actual gun does not happen quickly.

iBBz said:

I tried to but didn't run into this article at all, but you are right, next time I'll try harder to find more info. The videos are good propaganda, nothing wrong with showing off some of these capabilities, and it could be done without revealing any sensitive information. The article claims the 181 can setup and fire 6 projectiles then move on in three minutes. Why do you think that is? Its because they want to show us but through text. Its still propaganda. That claim is outlandish, not saying its a lie, but it sounds faster than even the fully automated systems and merits video proof, even if its from a camera mounted on the dashboard showing nothing but the truck stopping and the firing sound repeating 6 times then the truck moving. If this claim is true, then I rest my case.

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iBBz said:

You are misunderstanding what I mean by propaganda. Propaganda is a good thing, but textual propaganda is not as credible as video. Here's an example of what I mean. I have never been able to find a video showing 052d and 055 gun stabilizing during live fire. Simply because of this, I'm always left wondering whether it does have stabilization. The point is not whether the capability exists or not, its whether the audience or adversary are convinced enough of the existence of the capability.

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Both of these sound like a problem where you expect the PLA to "demonstrate" or "prove" things, without realizing that this is the PLA we are talking about and the sheer mass of things they have deliberately not shown us is massive in scale.

They deliberately conceal even basic things from us, things which other military forces and contractors around the world are happy to disclose.

iBBz said:

You have to admit this is kind of a bummer and may not be wrong, but will still look wrong. Why should anyone trust the equipmemt you sell if you yourself don't operate them? If you say the PLA runs on a tight budget, which I didn't know, then fair enough.

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It seems like there is a lot you didn't know.

I'm not sure how new you are to PLA watching, but it may be worthwhile to spend a few years reading and observing before actively making declarative statements or giving advice.

supersnoop said:

“Pics or it didn’t happen”?
That’s more ridiculous than the claim of 3 minutes to fire. How is it outlandish? Motors and servos aren’t necessarily moving faster than humans. Think of those automatic lift gates on a car, they move slowly.

How long do you think it takes the crew to jump out of the cab? 20s? How long do you think it takes to open the container for a shell? 15s? Moving a shell from the storage container to between the trails? 30s? There is a crew of 6, so some of this will definitely happen concurrently even if some of the crew is laying the gun. Again, laying the gun is probably taking up the most time because moving the actual gun does not happen quickly.

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The thing doesn't even have an autoloader, 3 minutes to setup, aim, fire six shots, retract everything, get back in the truck and be on the move, sounds like alot of steps to complete in 3 minutes. I have to doubt that claim till I see it.

Michaelsinodef said:

Uprising my ass, look at like Ukraine or Russia, no real 'uprising' despite many losses.

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The higher population of China does raise the stakes in that regard.

Blitzo said:

Both of these sound like a problem where you expect the PLA to "demonstrate" or "prove" things, without realizing that this is the PLA we are talking about and the sheer mass of things they have deliberately not shown us is massive in scale.

They deliberately conceal even basic things from us, things which other military forces and contractors around the world are happy to disclose.

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They aren't concealing it in this case. They made the claim on the link you shared but despite the many videos of the system showing the operators loading unloading shooting aiming etc, I don't see a single video showing the entire thing in one go, and that is exactly why I have doubts.

Blitzo said:

I'm not sure how new you are to PLA watching, but it may be worthwhile to spend a few years reading and observing before actively making declarative statements or giving advice.

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I've been watching the PLA for a couple of years, they do lots of weird and questionable things and they have a habit of churning out designs non stop, which is not a good thing at all.

iBBz said:

They aren't concealing it in this case. They made the claim on the link you shared but despite the many videos of the system showing the operators loading unloading shooting aiming etc, I don't see a single video showing the entire thing in one go, and that is exactly why I have doubts.


I've been watching the PLA for a couple of years, they do lots of weird and questionable things and they have a habit of churning out designs non stop, which is not a good thing at all.

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I think you need to re-evaluate your expectations/entitlement a little bit.

Blitzo said:

I think you need to re-evaluate your expectations/entitlement a little bit.

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I'm beginning to see that as well.

iBBz said:

The thing doesn't even have an autoloader, 3 minutes to setup, aim, fire six shots, retract everything, get back in the truck and be on the move, sounds like alot of steps to complete in 3 minutes. I have to doubt that claim till I see it.

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1. PCL-181 has a semi-automatic loader. Loader doesn’t have to jam the round into the breech and no one has to close it.

2. I agree it’s a tight timeframe, but I can also guarantee that loading isn’t the limiting factor. You seem to be very hung up on that.

PCL-181

PCL-171

PCL-161

PLA basically has more automated SPL than India has artillery in just PLZ series.

The PCL series of truck mounted semi-automated artillery are not just cream on top, they are extra cakes on top.

PLA is about as synonymous with artillery as USA is with Mcdonalds. While we're getting caught up bemoaning how the "extras" of PLA artillery aren't a match for the top of the line artillery pieces in other armies, we're forgetting to measure China's own equivalents and the remaining networked force structure of the PLA. Just like how the British army might have a slightly better SHORAD than the US army, it doesn't speak much of the effectiveness and overall strength of the two while working in conjunction with the remainder of that force structure.

It's like if I had a couple of Rolls and Bentleys in my garage but also own a fleet of humble Camrys but my neighbour has a smaller fleet of bicycles but one Mercedes, does that mean my Camrys need immediate replacement to show him up?