What do you think is the Max range of HQ-29 if targetted against Planes?
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PLA Anti-Air Missile (SAM) systems
- Thread starter FORBIN
- Start date
Zero because it is an exoatmospheric KKV.What do you think is the Max range of HQ-29 if targetted against Planes?
All AD have multiple capabilities and uses. If it has the radar link with an AWACS to guide the missile, I don't see why it can't be launched against Air targets. In fact, we have seen AD missiles used in Anti-Ship and Ground Attack roles.Zero because it is an exoatmospheric KKV.
It is literally stated in the officially commentary that CJ-1000 can attack air targets.
Kindly point out the exact sentence in Chinese where the official commentary said those exact words.
Official statement:Kindly point out the exact sentence in Chinese where the official commentary said those exact words.
Guancha Trio's commentary on the official statement:
If you can't see why an exoatmospheric KKV can't be launched against air targets, maybe you should post less and read more.All AD have multiple capabilities and uses. If it has the radar link with an AWACS to guide the missile, I don't see why it can't be launched against Air targets. In fact, we have seen AD missiles used in Anti-Ship and Ground Attack roles.
Look we know PLA has been playing with 1000km+ SAMs and possibly AAMs and technically ~5000km is 1000km+.
But at no point in time should we assume CJ-1000, a HCM dedicated for anti-surface roles with possible use against moving warships be assumed as the 1000km+ SAM.
First of all, if you can get ISR and stealth aircrafts close enough to reliably provide tracking and weapons guidance, then those aircraft can perform the shot anyway. You don't need a 16m long HCM for this. It's better to use that 16m long HCM against a billion dollar fully equipped warship than it is to take a shot at a AEWC or tanker. It's easier to take out that tanker or AEWC with hordes of UADF or 5th gen fighters or even forward deployed stealth assets guiding new ULRAAMs like the PL-17's replacement. Even the PL-17 off a J-16 guided by stealth ISR can do the job at 300km or greater. Even a now outdated PL-15 can do this at pretty long ranges. Yes 200km is a long range.
5000km assets aren't used to perform 1000km duties. Also would be silly to use it when 300km missiles can do the job. You can make them fast, but not that fast or cheap lol.
CJ-1000 is a revolutionary step for A2AD. Supplementing DF-26 (MaRV mach 20) and DF-27 (HGV, mach 10+) anti ship weapons. These three are all extremely long ranged, land based systems that act in conjunction with all your more forward deployed anti-ship assets like YJ-18, YJ-12, YJ-17, YJ-21, "JL-1" (it was renamed for parade to mask actual designation), YJ-15, YJ-19, and the new stealth cruise missiles. Then you have the closer ranged YJ-91 and the like. Plus a hundred other things from the past. Then you get to aircraft with lower ranged stand off weapons. At the same time you are fighting for air dominance. If you have that, the USN is going to be pushed further away.
The key is in extending this range of air dominance further from your entire ground support network. A 5000km SAM honestly has no place here despite first intuition thinking it's a good addition. No it isn't. Just add 1000km SAM to your UVLS on 055 and 052D. It'll be much cheaper and leave the CJ-1000s to harass surface combatants at 5000km.
It is technically not impossible for CJ-1000 to act as a SAM if it is manoeuverable enough. We don't know that. If it is, nothing really stopping it against heavy tankers and AEWC particularly with a massive proximity warhead. It's not ABM so it doesn't need hit to kill. In fact massive proximity warhead would be better against large aircraft.
The thing is if you have the tech to produce a scramjet powered SAM to stretch its range well beyond 1000km based on whatever your objective it and the available booster, then you can produce one that can be a ULRAAM that comes off a H-6 or H-20 or J-36. Rocket boosted AAM to mach 6 or so and scramjet powered for the rest. The calculus is target's manoeuverability. Against fighters, this doesn't even need to be considered. I'm sure MaRV, gliders and engine powered hypersonics don't have that degree of manoeuverability.
But at no point in time should we assume CJ-1000, a HCM dedicated for anti-surface roles with possible use against moving warships be assumed as the 1000km+ SAM.
First of all, if you can get ISR and stealth aircrafts close enough to reliably provide tracking and weapons guidance, then those aircraft can perform the shot anyway. You don't need a 16m long HCM for this. It's better to use that 16m long HCM against a billion dollar fully equipped warship than it is to take a shot at a AEWC or tanker. It's easier to take out that tanker or AEWC with hordes of UADF or 5th gen fighters or even forward deployed stealth assets guiding new ULRAAMs like the PL-17's replacement. Even the PL-17 off a J-16 guided by stealth ISR can do the job at 300km or greater. Even a now outdated PL-15 can do this at pretty long ranges. Yes 200km is a long range.
5000km assets aren't used to perform 1000km duties. Also would be silly to use it when 300km missiles can do the job. You can make them fast, but not that fast or cheap lol.
CJ-1000 is a revolutionary step for A2AD. Supplementing DF-26 (MaRV mach 20) and DF-27 (HGV, mach 10+) anti ship weapons. These three are all extremely long ranged, land based systems that act in conjunction with all your more forward deployed anti-ship assets like YJ-18, YJ-12, YJ-17, YJ-21, "JL-1" (it was renamed for parade to mask actual designation), YJ-15, YJ-19, and the new stealth cruise missiles. Then you have the closer ranged YJ-91 and the like. Plus a hundred other things from the past. Then you get to aircraft with lower ranged stand off weapons. At the same time you are fighting for air dominance. If you have that, the USN is going to be pushed further away.
The key is in extending this range of air dominance further from your entire ground support network. A 5000km SAM honestly has no place here despite first intuition thinking it's a good addition. No it isn't. Just add 1000km SAM to your UVLS on 055 and 052D. It'll be much cheaper and leave the CJ-1000s to harass surface combatants at 5000km.
It is technically not impossible for CJ-1000 to act as a SAM if it is manoeuverable enough. We don't know that. If it is, nothing really stopping it against heavy tankers and AEWC particularly with a massive proximity warhead. It's not ABM so it doesn't need hit to kill. In fact massive proximity warhead would be better against large aircraft.
The thing is if you have the tech to produce a scramjet powered SAM to stretch its range well beyond 1000km based on whatever your objective it and the available booster, then you can produce one that can be a ULRAAM that comes off a H-6 or H-20 or J-36. Rocket boosted AAM to mach 6 or so and scramjet powered for the rest. The calculus is target's manoeuverability. Against fighters, this doesn't even need to be considered. I'm sure MaRV, gliders and engine powered hypersonics don't have that degree of manoeuverability.
Ukraine is launching Shore based anti-ship missiles on Ground targets. SM-6 was a naval anti-missile system that is now air launched as anti-air missile. They are using SM-6 on the typhoon launcher as anti-ship missile.If you can't see why an exoatmospheric KKV can't be launched against air targets, maybe you should post less and read more.
You should pay attention about what is happening in the world when it comes to missiles. Just like Planes which have become multi-role, All missiles are slowly becoming multi-role these days. This new rumour about CJ-1000 also being air capable is just following that trend. I have no doubt PLA will look into making all its missiles multi-mission capable. It just makes them more versatile.
All AD have multiple capabilities and uses. If it has the radar link with an AWACS to guide the missile, I don't see why it can't be launched against Air targets. In fact, we have seen AD missiles used in Anti-Ship and Ground Attack roles.
This is sort of like saying a shopping trolley can be a go cart and a go cart can act as a shopping trolley.
Dedicated mid course ABM typically are optimised for very fast climb. SAMs against aircrafts are more optimised for horizontal range or slanted range. ABM need to burn fuel faster and gain altitude faster. SAMs want to become sort of ballistic and gain potential energy and hit their targets on their downwards trajectory. ABM usually hit their targets from below or slightly head on.
You can technically it's possible to use a ABM focused interceptor for anti aircraft or an anti aircraft focused SAM for anti cruise missile or whatever and there are overlaps for sure e.g. HQ-9B and HQ-16 series was/is sort of a do all. But PLA seems to have the do all range of AD systems in layered ranges AND also the focused AD systems in layered ranges. HQ-29 is mid course or boost phase even depending where the ballistic missile target is launched from. HQ-19 is terminal phase so as the warheads are re-entering atmosphere. lower ranged ABM systems are going to doing the same terminal phase just at different altitudes. HQ-9C is evidently thinner than HQ-9B not just to be more easily ULVS packed but to climb faster and have those lateral thrusters (which btw Chinese ABM of previous generations also used) indicating its upper altitude limits are extremely thin of atmosphere making it a sort of mini HQ-19.
You don't want to use your screwdriver as a hammer or your hammer as a wrench. Sometimes you find creative ways where you sort of can. Usually you can't. That detail of true overlap is unknown but it would be dumb and wasteful to use HQ-29 (a near IRBM sized ABM) for anti-aircraft when you have literally 10 other SAMs for this job... okay 2 that are long ranged - HQ-9 and HQ-22.
Neither HQ-9, HQ-22 or even HQ-19 are big enough and do not have enough propellant to be able to hit targets 1000+ KM away. HQ-29 is probably the only one that has that kind of size to go that far.This is sort of like saying a shopping trolley can be a go cart and a go cart can act as a shopping trolley.
Dedicated mid course ABM typically are optimised for very fast climb. SAMs against aircrafts are more optimised for horizontal range or slanted range. ABM need to burn fuel faster and gain altitude faster. SAMs want to become sort of ballistic and gain potential energy and hit their targets on their downwards trajectory. ABM usually hit their targets from below or slightly head on.
You can technically it's possible to use a ABM focused interceptor for anti aircraft or an anti aircraft focused SAM for anti cruise missile or whatever and there are overlaps for sure e.g. HQ-9B and HQ-16 series was/is sort of a do all. But PLA seems to have the do all range of AD systems in layered ranges AND also the focused AD systems in layered ranges. HQ-29 is mid course or boost phase even depending where the ballistic missile target is launched from. HQ-19 is terminal phase so as the warheads are re-entering atmosphere. lower ranged ABM systems are going to doing the same terminal phase just at different altitudes. HQ-9C is evidently thinner than HQ-9B not just to be more easily ULVS packed but to climb faster and have those lateral thrusters (which btw Chinese ABM of previous generations also used) indicating its upper altitude limits are extremely thin of atmosphere making it a sort of mini HQ-19.
You don't want to use your screwdriver as a hammer or your hammer as a wrench. Sometimes you find creative ways where you sort of can. Usually you can't. That detail of true overlap is unknown but it would be dumb and wasteful to use HQ-29 (a near IRBM sized ABM) for anti-aircraft when you have literally 10 other SAMs for this job... okay 2 that are long ranged - HQ-9 and HQ-22.
US has a strategy of using B-2 and its other Bombers like B-1B for launching long range missiles against China from thousands of KM away. They are developing JASSM-ER and LRASM for these roles.
I think that's why China is looking at ultra long range SAM that can target these high value Bombers, AWACS, Tankers and other extremely high value assets from 1000+ KM away.
I am not saying HQ-29 has been designed for this. But so far, its the only public system big enough for that kind of range interception. And my hunch is that, HQ-29 will likely have that kind of secondary capability.