PLA Anti-Air Missile (SAM) systems

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Official statement:
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Guancha Trio's commentary on the official statement:
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Regarding the official statement, here's the exact quote:
长剑-1000,是我国首型高超声速巡航导弹,具备灵活机动、强力突破、即时发射等特点,可对陆、海、空体系节点目标实施精确打击
Which part of this official commentary's sentence explicitly mentioned that the CJ-1000 can hit airborne targets?

And I'll just quote my previous reply here:
For aerial context, this can certainly refer to enemy airbases and facilities & infrastructure (e.g. radar sites, communication antennas, SAM sites) which support the operations of the enemy air forces, not necessarily (and definitely not, IMHO) enemy aerial assets.
And sorry - Why would you need multiple-100 kilograms of warhead powered by a massive hypersonic cruise missile just to shoot down an enemy AEW&C aircraft, all when one or two ULRAAMs (and/or ULRSAMs) with only double-digit kilograms of warhead each is/are already sufficient to do the job?

Also, I've watched and rewatched the Guancha Gang clip several times - And in under no circumstances where they have actually ascertained that "yes, the CJ-1000 is actually also an ULRAAM/ULRSAM and can strike airborne targets". What they have actually said/concluded that is actually relevant/important is "话里有话,看你怎么理解" (there are words within words, it depends on how you understand/interpret it) (from 02:35).

Not that I'm against a scramjet-powered ULRSAM/ULRAAM with effective strike ranges in the quadruple digits of kilometers - But CJ-1000 as a strategic surface strike missile is NOT it.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Neither HQ-9, HQ-22 or even HQ-19 are big enough and do not have enough propellant to be able to hit targets 1000+ KM away. HQ-29 is probably the only one that has that kind of size to go that far.

I know. Currently no country fields 1000km+ SAMs designed to counter aircraft, particularly manoeuverable aircraft like fighters. Even HQ-9, Patriots and S-400 struggle against fighters anywhere beyond 100km. In fact probably within 100km once you factor in highly capable electronic warfare from US and China.

HQ-29 is designed as boost phase or mid course ABM. The THAAD isn't designed to hit stealth bombers either. Nor is the GBI or the Russia S-500 and S-550 modern ABMs.

US has a strategy of using B-2 and its other Bombers like B-1B for launching long range missiles against China from thousands of KM away. They are developing JASSM-ER and LRASM for these roles.

Yes and the role of PLAAF and PLAN is to keep them even further away. It's a massive contest for air dominance. Guess where B-2 and B-1 and the like will take off from? Guess how many MRBM, IRBM, HGV, HCM, and regular 1000km LACMs will be raining down on those targets every single hour to keep them not just shut but unrepairable.

First thing is to wipe regional US bases clean. 2x F-35 range

They want to fly strategic ranges, they need to get past every layer and then only get to deliver some measly payloads. If they want to go nuclear, theyll get glassed equally bad. So they fly risky B-2 and B-21 missions and even if they somehow get passed everything, they can only attack a few targets at a time. There are tens of thousands of targets. More targets than the US has bombs. China won't sit still while this goes on. If it can even happen a few times. Ukraine has taken thousands of Russian bombing sorties.

You'll need to contend with USN. That's the main objective and keep them far away from launching effective air sorties. This is why they wanted the FA-xx to have much greater range than F-35. They've said F-35 doesn't give them enough operational range given China's A2AD extents.

The antidote to B-21 launching weapons from thousands of km away from Chinese mainland targets is to have air superiority beyond 1st island chain. That's a given because China's naval A2AD is roughly beyond the 2nd island chain now. At the very least. It's conventional navy is starting to match the USN. The US will be suffering monumental catastrophic losses and rate of losses in a western pacific slug fest.

A B-21 is designed to penetrate all that. Suppose it manages to and the USN is kept at bay or in a slug fest further east. That B-21 has to take off from Hawaii or about as far away. In such a war, those bases would be attacked by IRBMs, HCMs, HGVs, air and ship launched cruise missiles. The B-21 flying from continental USA is the threat. Well to counter these, China needs H-20 and to keep improving its own navy and airforce to the point it has the ability to contest and win distance so it can perform the same on the US in a conventional war.


I think that's why China is looking at ultra long range SAM that can target these high value Bombers, AWACS, Tankers and other extremely high value assets from 1000+ KM away.

I am not saying HQ-29 has been designed for this. But so far, its the only public system big enough for that kind of range interception. And my hunch is that, HQ-29 will likely have that kind of secondary capability.

Yes China is playing with ultra long range SAMs that are designed to counter aircraft. Tankers and AEWC are easy because they're nowhere near stealthy enough. A B-21 or B-2 is considerably harder. Even if you work out the mechanics of a 3000km SAM that can hit moving aircraft. How do you find, track and guide such a missile against a ULO target like B-21? It's stealth is going to be similar to J-36, J-50 ie completely blended into background. You'd need new sensing technologies and then produce and train yourself to operate entire networks of it and defend them.

The only way to prevent this is by going on the offence. You can't perfect entire chain for the SAM method so you need H-20, JH-xy and the rest of the PLAAF and PLAN to be every bit as capable and more numerous than USAF and USN. Make the cost for them at least a 1:1. This is deterrence. I think we're already on the verge of this. PLAAF and PLAN just need to keep running at this pace and give it 5 years it'll be qualitatively equal in almost every field if not superior in a few select ones and quantitatively 1.5x in every field if not more. This is already a pessimistic comparison. No need for miracle SAMs. They bomb your sites, you bomb their mainland too. HGVs can already do this without making it seem like a nuclear exchange.

The US will not touch China. It cannot afford to anymore. In fact that ship sailed roughly 10 years ago.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Regarding the official statement, here's the exact quote:

Which part of this official commentary's sentence explicitly mentioned that the CJ-1000 can hit airborne targets?

And I'll just quote my previous reply here:



Also, I've watched and rewatched the Guancha Gang clip several times - And in under no circumstances where they have actually ascertained that "yes, the CJ-1000 is actually also an ULRAAM/ULRSAM and can strike airborne targets". What they have actually said/concluded that is actually relevant/important is "话里有话,看你怎么理解" (there are words within words, it depends on how you understand/interpret it) (from 02:35).

Not that I'm against a scramjet-powered ULRSAM/ULRAAM with effective strike ranges in the quadruple digits of kilometers - But CJ-1000 as a strategic surface strike missile is NOT it.

Yes, such a missile would be called HQ-1000 :p

The real threat from the US is the USN in particular the carriers that can contest air superiority and their submarines. No idea on the submarine front as that appears to be a secretive area of PLA defense doctrine. Carrier battle groups are conventionally countered by the ever improving and increasing PLA A2AD network from unmanned underwater drones to space based ISR and longer ranged, faster flying, more advanced missiles and their launching platforms, backed by an ever increasing and improving ship based integrated air defense, PLAAF and PLANAF.

The other major threat is represented by B-2 and the future B-21. It'll be about 20 years before the USAF has enough B-21 to really make half a dent. People overestimate the destructiveness of bombs and underestimate how numerous, spread out, numerous, large, numerous, well defended with ground based IAD and how numerous targets are. It takes years of constant B-21 sortie to even isolate against targets in one single province. There aren't enough conventional bombs manufactured in the world that can cover all the targets in a country like Ukraine. Still, the B-21 problem should be addressed now rather than in 10 years when they have a decent number of them. By then there'll be a decent number of J-36, J-50 and H-20s too though. Plus enough IRBM boosted HGVs to hit and destroy every major US MIC centre alone just with PLARF. If they can intercept them by then well conventional force is the backup or vice versa.

I suspect PLA is silent on next generation sensor technologies. Multi-static radars was first leaked by China before the J-20 got into service. They had 50 years to counter the stealth problem. Multi-static radars is just a 2000s technique to counter F-22. New ULO aircraft like J-50, J-36 and B-21 may be beyond the ability of radars at least in typical frontal aspects so PLA should work hard to solve this problem if it remains to be solved. I don't think 3000km SAMs are a solution since you can't use radar to detect, track and guide missiles to an aircraft that actually does not register at all on radar.

The SAC guy basically hinted that J-50 was already at the point where it doesn't produce a return signature to source. Not a small signature like 5th gen fighters. We're at a new age of materials, gap hiding techniques and the aircrafts themselves have all the troublesome surfaces removed.

I maintain that the only proper fool proof counter to B-21 is H-20 and a force strong enough to keep hitting the US mainland conventionally in case of war. PLA can already hit US mainland conventionally with IRBM boosted HGVs and now HCMs too. But it's good to also be able to use your navy and strategic bombers that are actually invisible to radars (6th gen > 5th gen) to do the same in case the rest of the legacy force can't get through the other's defenses. There are those penetrating assets that while they can't completely win wars, are at least able to harass and deplete MIC.
 

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
I maintain that the only proper fool proof counter to B-21 is H-20 and a force strong enough to keep hitting the US mainland conventionally in case of war. PLA can already hit US mainland conventionally with IRBM boosted HGVs and now HCMs too. But it's good to also be able to use your navy and strategic bombers that are actually invisible to radars (6th gen > 5th gen) to do the same in case the rest of the legacy force can't get through the other's defenses. There are those penetrating assets that while they can't completely win wars, are at least able to harass and deplete MIC.
ULRSAM is not a solution to destroy B-21/F-47 etc directly, it's a solution to destroy enemy AEWC and tankers(Which are non stealth hence easy to track) so far out that all of these forementioned combat aircraft do not have the range to even fly to the combat zones.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
ULRSAM is not a solution to destroy B-21/F-47 etc directly, it's a solution to destroy enemy AEWC and tankers(Which are non stealth hence easy to track) so far out that all of these forementioned aircraft do not have the range to even fly to the combat zones.

B-2 (VLO at least) and B-21 (ULO) are both strategic ranged. They can fly from continental USA to China at least one way. In reality, if they ever do fly to China with the aim of releasing weapons, it is assured they will fly one way, possibly half way.
 

Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regarding the official statement, here's the exact quote:

Which part of this official commentary's sentence explicitly mentioned that the CJ-1000 can hit airborne targets?

And I'll just quote my previous reply here:

Also, I've watched and rewatched the Guancha Gang clip several times - And in under no circumstances where they have actually ascertained that "yes, the CJ-1000 is actually also an ULRAAM/ULRSAM and can strike airborne targets". What they have actually said/concluded that is actually relevant/important is "话里有话,看你怎么理解" (there are words within words, it depends on how you understand/interpret it) (from 02:35).
Yeah, I'm interpreting "can attack ground, sea and air nodes" as can attack flying aircrafts. Airbases, SAMs, parked aircrafts would count as ground targets just as aircraft carriers are sea targets. You don't hear the PLARF saying the "DF-26 can attack air nodes" just because it can sink carriers and remove dozens of aircrafts out of the equation.
Not that I'm against a scramjet-powered ULRSAM/ULRAAM with effective strike ranges in the quadruple digits of kilometers - But CJ-1000 as a strategic surface strike missile is NOT it.
On the contrary, I would argue the CJ-1000 makes a lot of sense as the first generation of ULRSAM. Hypersonic cruise has many advantages vs ballistic or HGV in the anti-air role. The CJ-1000's size means it likely have the space for sensors and datalinks to support flying target acquisition.
 

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
B-2 (VLO at least) and B-21 (ULO) are both strategic ranged. They can fly from continental USA to China at least one way. In reality, if they ever do fly to China with the aim of releasing weapons, it is assured they will fly one way, possibly half way.
B-2 is getting retired soon and there's only a handful of those operational at best while B-21 do not have the combat range to reach the mainland from beyond the 2IC without refueling. I doubt US mission planners will go down to the level of dumping these aircraft and the pilots kamikaze style for one way missions.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
B-2 is getting retired soon and there's only a handful of those operational at best while B-21 do not have the combat range to reach the mainland from beyond the 2IC without refueling. I doubt US mission planners will go down to the level of dumping these aircraft and the pilots kamikaze style for one way missions.

I agree but better to have redundancy and also a nastier and more capable military.

I thought B-21 was strategic ranged. It's a bit of a mystery still as they're still working on the B-21. I know that NAFO idiots think it's in service but it's not even close to being mass produced. They'll be on the soup vouchers by the time it's being mass produced.

Like I said, the US can barely afford to engage in war with Russia. Afford in money, equipment and lives. The US would be annihilated in conventional or nuclear war with China.

We will see a very dramatic reversal of US policy against China in coming years. It will either escalate to all out war if the wrong people get into power or they will seek an off-ramp. Just like India today is clamouring around for favours and off ramps, the US will go looking for total de-escalation and their political elites if they're sensible will go looking for negotiations.

China just needs to be on guard. Literally the most dangerous time in history.

Or the US ends up in some form of revolution. It's a society at breaking point with no tangible mechanics to repair it. They aren't able to realise their system is the flaw. They're slowly transitioning into an authoritarian plutocracy. With a market manipulator in the top seat. It's a joke. To match China in performance, they will inevitably become like China in all the ways they dislike it. All of this is physics and predictable from day 1. Something has to give and the US is not going to last much longer without completely harvesting their allies and any victim they have available. If China's too strong, they will have to hunt for others. Dangerous world because of a dangerous system that cannot be self critical. NAFO thinks this is China. The reality they can't fathom.

Only solution is for US to scale back globally and save. If they can slowly evolve like the UK did, it'll just be a slow decline that's manageable. What China wants. Continued business as usual for the next 30 years. People won't realise the mantle of power has long moved.
 
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dingyibvs

Senior Member
No, you can't use satellites for this. Which is why AMTI replacing E-7 and so forth is such a fiasco. The technololgy is simply not there yet.

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And if you have manned or unmanned aircraft within sensor range, then you can just, yknow, load those same aircraft with long-range AAMs. Which PLAAF is of course already doing. Because they aren't as stupid as you are.
I agree that satellite tracking of aerial targets is probably not feasible. However, there can be other solutions such as the new WZ-X. All the very long range missiles China has developed to hit very long range moving targets, even ships, need sensor nodes far ahead of firing solutions to guide the missiles. The WZ-X for example should have excellent stealth and very long endurance and can do this job.

The question then is what if WZ-X et. al find a high value aerial target is beyond available shipborne or aerial firing solutions? It's likely not feasible to move ships or launch aircrafts to move within range to fire their missiles due to time constraints and the danger of getting hit baack. This IMO is when the CJ-1000 could be called upon. At Mach 6, which is around the minimum to be called hypersonic, it can reach a target 3000+ kms away in less than 30 minutes.
 
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