P-8A/P-8I ASW/MPA Aircraft Thread

[Jeff Head]

With the UK publishing it's SDSR in about 2 month I think, it seems Boeing is getting ready to press the P-8 to the UK market. The armed forces of which seem to be inclined to favour that aircraft.

The question would then be if the UK can afford it in sufficient numbers.

It will be interesting to see what the P-8 price point is, particularly compared to the Japanese P-1 which I also believe will be offered.

Seeing these two very capable aircraft competing against each other will be interesting.

 

[Jeff Head]

I think people will be interested in reading what this US Navy pilot, who was traine don and then operated the P-3C Orion has to say after he transitioned to the P-8A Poseidon.

I am taking the portion of the article focused on his comments about the P-8A. A lot of the article relates his expereiences with the P-3C.

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Following a few deployments with the P-3C, my squadron transitioned to the new P-8A Poseidon. The P-8A is derived from the Boeing 737. The aircraft features a Boeing 737-800 fuselage mated to 737-900 wings and is equipped with raked wingtips optimized for low altitude flight and long endurance. In place of a cargo hold, the aircraft boasts additional fuel tanks and a weapons bay. The reliability, speed, and sensor capabilities equate to a significant improvement over the legacy aircraft (the P-3). In the Poseidon, the Navy married advanced sensors and communications connectivity with a modern, highly reliable and efficient airframe that already existed on the commercial marketplace.

If I sound like a Poseidon lover, well then consider me guilty. I am, and admit it honestly. The aircraft is powerful, reliable, and easy to fly. It was a challenge transitioning from a straight wing turboprop to a high altitude, swept wing jet, but I personally found the P-8A to be intuitive and comfortable to fly. The largest difference is not in flight characteristics, but rather in how the pilot interfaces with the aircraft. The P-3C is flown hands-on, with little if any automation. In the Poseidon, the pilot utilizes the Flight Management Computer and a highly advanced coupled autopilot to fly the jet. Whether flying on airway routes or positioning the aircraft to employ sensors, the Poseidon utilizes high levels of automation. This is not harder or easier than flying hands-on, simply different, and requires a different approach.

The tougher part about the jet is acting as a tactical operator and employing the sensors of the aircraft. The P-8A is revolutionary when it comes to sensor management, data fusion, and connectivity. The challenge for operators is not having insufficient sensor performance, but rather how to manage so many capable sensors, process the information, and transmit actionable data to commanders through a variety of communications networks and datalinks.

The P-8A boasts five mission crew workstations, all of which feature dual reconfigurable touchscreen displays and data entry keyboards. The ability to do any job from any workstation makes load sharing possible and is indeed critical to success during a mission. For example, during an information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) missions we might have extra electronic warfare operators in the seats scanning for radar emitters while another operator scans the radar and maps where those emitters are located. Conversely, during an ASW mission we can place extra acoustic operators in the seats to interpret sonar signals and track a submarine. The flexibility is extremely impressive.

I won't claim the P-8A does everything better than the P-3C. For one, the controls feel very different between the two aircraft. I find the P-3C to be a bit crisper on the controls, especially at low altitude and in the landing pattern. This isn't surprising, given the Orion's thick, straight wing and the swept wing and spoilers on the Poseidon. Also, the lack of a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) aboard the P-8A is a drawback.

Many folks ask if I feel less comfortable with two engines in the P-8A rather than four in the P-3C. Realistically, I'll take Poseidon any day. The reliability of the CFM-56 turbofans on the jet is generations ahead of the T-56 turboprops on the Orion. CFM-56 shutdown rates are on the order of three per million flight hours. In fact, P-8A has been flying for more than three years and has yet to have an in-flight engine shutdown. I'll take the reliability of the P-8A every time over the P-3C.

Overall, I've found the P-8A allows crew-members to focus more on tactical employment and getting every ounce of performance out of the jet's sensors and weapons. While the Orion is a very safe airplane statistically, it was designed in another age with different design philosophies. It's very hands-on and user intensive especially for pilots and flight engineers. Because of the fact that the P-3C is honestly trying to break, catch on fire, or generally kill you during any given flight, we have to devote a great deal of energy simply to operating it safely. This isn't a hit on the P-3C, any airplane of that generation is like that, and the fact that some of these birds are over 40 years old is a testament to the engineers who designed them and our maintainers who keep them flying. Because reliability is baked into the P-8, we can focus more on tactical effectiveness. The result is higher situational awareness (SA) and much better mission performance in the new jet.

So, current plans call for:

U.S. Navy : 122 P-8A Poseidon Aircraft
India Navy: 012 P-8I Neptune Aircraft
Australia : 012 P-8A Poseidon Aircraft
U.K.: ----- 009 P-8A Poseidon Aircraft

I expect we will see more P_8 orders. Bnoth from these countries, and from other countries who will transition away from existing P-3s onto the P-8 as time goes on.

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Right now the following nations are operating P-3c that could tranistion to the P-8:

South Korea: 16 aircraft
Brazil: 12 Aircraft
Germany: 8 Aircraft
Norway: 6 Aircraft
New Zealand: 6 Aircraft
Greece: 6 Aircraft
Chile: 4 Aircraft

How many will? Only time wil tell.

 

[Jeff Head]

More...

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The Indian Navy has deployed a P 8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft to Seychelles on March 20, to conduct surveillance missions in the Exclusive Economic Zone of Seychelles, in accordance with the MoU between the Governments of India and Seychelles.

The Indian Navy has, in the past, undertaken surveillance missions in the Seychellois EEZ twice a year, by deploying IN ships.

The last such deployment was undertaken by ships of the 1st Training Squadron of the Indian Navy, in October 2015. This is the first time that the P8I aircraft has been deployed to Seychelles.

The aircraft will remain deployed till March 23. In addition, the deployment will facilitate professional interaction between the aircrew and the Seychelles People’s Defence Force (SPDF).

The Indian Navy said this deployment would assist in curbing illegal activities and piracy as well as contribute towards security and stability in the Indian Ocean region.

The P-8I aircraft is a variant of the P-8A Poseidon aircraft that Boeing developed as a replacement for the US Navy’s ageing P-3 fleet. Indian Navy became the first international customer for the P-8 aircraft with the conclusion of the nearly US $ 2.1 billion contract on Jan 1, 2009 for a total of eight aircraft.

Based at INS Rajali, the aircraft are operated by Indian Naval Air Squadron 312A under the command of Commander Venkateshwaran Ranganathan.

 

[JudgeKing]

Right now the following nations are operating P-3c that could tranistion to the P-8:

South Korea: 16 aircraft
Brazil: 12 Aircraft
Germany: 8 Aircraft
Norway: 6 Aircraft
New Zealand: 6 Aircraft
Greece: 6 Aircraft
Chile: 4 Aircraft

How many will? Only time wil tell.

You forgot about Canada with its eighteen CP-140 Auroras (which is a variant of the P-3C Orion).

 

[SamuraiBlue]

I don't think Brazil will be acquiring any with the present economy and Embraer wanting some of the action.
Same goes with Greece not for a while anyways.

 

[Jeff Head]

You forgot about Canada with its eighteen CP-140 Auroras (which is a variant of the P-3C Orion).

You are exactly right and that is my bad for leaving the CP-140 Auroras out.

The CP-140 is really a very capable aircraft and unique...using the P-3 airframe coupled with the newer electronics from the S-3A Viking.

They too would be a good target for the P-8 Poseidon.

We shall see.

Thanks for reminding me of them.

 

[vincent]

You are exactly right and that is my bad for leaving the CP-140 Auroras out.

The CP-140 is really a very capable aircraft and unique...using the P-3 airframe coupled with the newer electronics from the S-3A Viking.

They too would be a good target for the P-8 Poseidon.

We shall see.

Thanks for reminding me of them.

Considering our deficit is 30 Billions, not gonna happen anytime soon

 

[aksha]

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Defence ministry sources on Friday said the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), chaired by PM Narendra Modi, has cleared the acquisition of four Poseidon-8I longrange surveillance and antisubmarine warfare aircraft at a cost of over $1 billion. "The contract will be inked with Boeing in the next few days. The first P-8I will be delivered to the Navy within three years," said a source. The four new P-8I aircraft, packed with radars and weapons, will join the first eight such aircraft inducted by the Navy in 2013-2015 under a $2.1 billion deal.

The Navy is using the eight P-8Is, armed with deadly Harpoon Block-II missiles, MK-54 lightweight torpedoes, rockets and depth charges, to keep an "intelligent hawk-eye" over the entire Indian Ocean Region. With an operating range of 1,200 nautical miles, "with four hours on station", the P-8Is provide the reach and flexibility to undertake extensive maritime surveillance and intelligence-gathering missions.

They can detect "threats" in India's immediate and extended areas of interest and neutralise them if required.

 

[FORBIN]

India Awards Boeing $1B Option for Four More P-8I Maritime Surveillance Aircraft

Boeing has been awarded a $1 billion contract option by the Indian government for four more of the company’s P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft, USNI News has learned.

The four P-8Is – based on the U.S. Navy’s P-8A Poseidon aircraft – follows a $2.1 billion 2009 initial deal for the eight of the aircraft. The option, built into the original deal, would add the four aircraft as a direct commercial sale, sources familiar with the option told USNI News on Wednesday.

The option to buy the quartet of aircraft was exercised in conjunction with a Wednesday visit to India by Frank Kendall, the Pentagon’s top acquisition official.
Officials with Boeing would not confirm the exercise of the option but noted reports of the Ministry of Defense’s expressed intent to pick up the four aircraft.

“The Indian Navy has been clear about their intent to exercise these options,” company spokeswoman Caroline Hutcheson told USNI News.
“We will defer to the MoD for any formal announcement.”
Based on Boeing’s 737 commercial airliner, India’s P-8 differs from the U.S. Navy configuration for the P-8 with the inclusion of an additional aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector used to find submarines. Much of the configuration is informed by the “Make in India” initiative for domestically defense material. Following those standards, the aircraft will be built and outfitted at Boeing’s facilities outside of Seattle, Wash.

The P-8Is replace eight Soviet-era Tupelov Tu-142M Bear anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft the Indian Navy bought in 1988.

India’s purchase of the P-8Is from a U.S. supplier was seen as a break with its relationship with

Moscow – to date New Delhi’s chief supplier of military hardware.

In the last several years, India has put effort into increasing its ASW capability as China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has pushed its submarine operations further west into the Indian Ocean. China is largely seen by New Delhi as India’s largest regional competitor.

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[Jeff Head]

View attachment 29311

Will bring them up to 12 aircraft.

I wonder if they will buy even more down the road.

Good aircraft, but India has a HUGE coastline and maritime needs. A dozen such aircraft, while a powerful tool, will spread fairly thin.