North Korea about to launch Taepodong-2

Mr T

Senior Member
We're getting closer to the showdown. Everything in NK seems to be on track. Especially Japan is prepping up it's defences. The coming days will be pretty tense.

Why will they be tense? I haven't read any credible comments about why people should be really stressed about this. It just seems to be one of those stupid scenarios where it becomes "accepted wisdom" that this is something to get worried about.

As far as I can see realistically there will be three possible outcomes.

1. The missile gets shot down. North Korea screams and rants, but then the fat porkers in Pyongyang realise they can do nothing about it without committing suicide. They sulk in the corner, but that's it.

2. The missile doesn't get shot down. Pyongyang enters propaganda mode as usual. The US and friends go to the UNSC. If China/Russia blocks a strong resolution, action is taken subsequently by the other nations. But nothing happens immediately.

3. The missile test fails. North Korea pretends to its populace it actually worked, everyone else laughs.

If there is a real problem, it will happen further down the line. Nothing catastrophic is going to happen in the immediate aftermath of the launch. As far as I can see countries are concerned about the launch because North Korea is once again showing its insincerity in disarming and defying the UN (again). The launch sets future problems for the disarmament process, but in of itself doesn't immediately threaten anyone.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
There's a lot of routine to NK missile launches, with lots of blood curdling rhetoric from KCNA to threats of retaliation from Japan and SK. I'm cynical about these things and I wonder if NK's threats to retaliate are bluster for domestic consumption so if the Taepodong mimics it's predecessor in 2005 and goes splash, they will be able to claim "U.S/Japan shot down our peaceful satellite!" Japan is saying that it will only intercept the rocket if it goes off course or if the booster stage is going to fall on it's territory, cynics would say that when the USS Lake Erie intercepted the USA-193 satellite it was a rehearsal of the SM-3 for a scenario like this, but that's another story!

As The Zergling says above this will fire up Japanese nationalists who will seek to exploit this in the run up to this summer's election. I also suspect that China will be seething at Kim for inflaming tensions in the region. A potentially dangerous time but I really doubt that there is going to be a war over this and I doubt China would intervene to save Kim if he launched an attack on SK or Japan.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
IMO China will do whatever is in its interests. As I understand, it is in the national interests of China to have a buffer state (any state without US/western bases or intelligence collection sites) on its boarder. So following this assertion, I believe Chinese leaders will not try to rock the status-quo boat. But, if a war breaks out and it is clear that NK is about to fall and will no longer serve as a proper buffer state, I believe the Chinese leaders will order an intervention, not unlike the last one.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
FAS and Global Security pretty much say that NK/Iranian missile programs are infact one.

Yeah the two programmes are undoubtedly linked but it looks like Global Security over-stated it. The two programmes seem to have gone in different directions with Iranian developments probably out-pacing NK ones. NK is still obsessed with more range, Iran seems more interested in accuracy (it can already reach Israel) and maybe nukes.


The North Korean people deserve a better standard of living, I hope the current regime implodes and somehow something good comes out of the power vacuum that'd leave. Missile launches are expensive wastes of money for a country that can't even feed its people. :mad:
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
IMO China will do whatever is in its interests. As I understand, it is in the national interests of China to have a buffer state (any state without US/western bases or intelligence collection sites) on its boarder. So following this assertion, I believe Chinese leaders will not try to rock the status-quo boat. But, if a war breaks out and it is clear that NK is about to fall and will no longer serve as a proper buffer state, I believe the Chinese leaders will order an intervention, not unlike the last one.

Absolutely so and I am amazed so many people seem to have difficulty with this basic Geo-Strategic reality:confused:

I can only guess it comes down to the Propaganda pumped out in certain countries. After all it is a lot easier; after the event, to accuse China of being unpredictable and treacherous, rather than admit that such a reaction was widely predicted and that their own behaviour was reckless and foolhardy in the extreme!
 

Mr T

Senior Member
But, if a war breaks out and it is clear that NK is about to fall and will no longer serve as a proper buffer state, I believe the Chinese leaders will order an intervention, not unlike the last one.

I wouldn't say "not unlike the last one" because that implies China would somehow support North Korea. If China sent the PLA into North Korea it would be against the Pyongyang regime. If it tried to annex North Korea in part or full, let alone support it, it would lead to an Asian Cold War, destroying all the good relations China had forged with its neighbours and the US (any many other countries).

rather than admit that such a reaction was widely predicted and that their own behaviour was reckless and foolhardy in the extreme!

Indeed. We are here because China and Russia backed and mollycoddled North Korea so much. After years of "oh, leave North Korea alone - they mean it when they aren't seeking nuclear weapons" what do we have? A crazy country gradually adding nuclear warheads to its arsenal and building long-range missiles. The same thing is repeating itself with Iran.

When will people stop being so foolish, always wishing for the best rather than facing hard facts? Perhaps China will only wake up when a country like Japan goes nuclear.... :(
 

Troika

Junior Member
A potentially good point bladerunner, but the non-military infrastructure in the North is minimal at best. It would be an economic boom to the South to head North and start developing the country. Also remember that there are only about 24 million residents of North Korea as compared to around 49 million residents of South Korea. (and who says the world isn't overpopulated?)

All in all, I think reunification (forced or otherwise) would be good for the South.

You would have more of a point of West Germany didn't outnumber East Germany by THREE to one as opposed to two in this case.

And East Germany was the powerhouse of the Warsaw Pact.

Facts disagree with you.
 

Troika

Junior Member
I wouldn't say "not unlike the last one" because that implies China would somehow support North Korea. If China sent the PLA into North Korea it would be against the Pyongyang regime. If it tried to annex North Korea in part or full, let alone support it, it would lead to an Asian Cold War, destroying all the good relations China had forged with its neighbours and the US (any many other countries).

If they are retarded enough to 'annex', sure. Nobody tried that trick for a long, long time. What might happen (unlikely, mind) is the installation of a more sane leader. Mind you, that's a small probability against a zero probability event. The relative difference is huge, the absolute difference, not so much. And if that happens, that's a lot of relieved people out there. Some annoyed people, but I don't see any fundamental reason why this mode would 'destroy any good relations'.


Indeed. We are here because China and Russia backed and mollycoddled North Korea so much. After years of "oh, leave North Korea alone - they mean it when they aren't seeking nuclear weapons" what do we have? A crazy country gradually adding nuclear warheads to its arsenal and building long-range missiles. The same thing is repeating itself with Iran.

When will people stop being so foolish, always wishing for the best rather than facing hard facts? Perhaps China will only wake up when a country like Japan goes nuclear.... :(

That's easy for you to say, you don't have a land border with North Korea. I really doubt the people in Moscow and Beijing is incapable of seeing what you can.

Notice how even the South Koreans typically are more circumspect about provoking the Norks? They are not doing this because they are blind, they are doing it because they don't really have a good choice. North Korean refugees is ALREADY a problem for China, causing much embarassment (i.e. every time some Norks break into a foreign compound in Beijing and beg for asylum), to say nothing of a net resource drain of all the fuel and food sent over (paid for in parts by goods and in parts by North Korean currency... you can guess how much that is worth). And you may not remember this, but the Norks may be testing missiles that can possibly reach America, but it has LONG had missiles that can reach Beijing.

So let's see what sort of realistic options China and Russia has outside of your ideal world where everybody joint hands and tell North Korea off:

1) Apply political pressure
Result: Get laughed at. Don't know if you've noticed it, but the Norks didn't listen to Mao in 1953, that's when there're a million Chinamen in North Korea. Their entire political philosophy is based on self-reliance.
2) Apply economic pressure
Result: See 1, but also add tide of refugees. Bottom line, the army gets fed, the army says 'fuck the people'. Party stay in power, everybody gets a border-control problem - there is a reason why China beefed up the number of divisions next to North Korean back in 2006.
3) Invade, install puppet regime
Result: China can't afford a war. It is not altogether clear China can win one if China tries given the limited amount of force that can be applied. Then see 2. And see refugee problems. And face international bad press.
4) Invade, annex.
Result: See above, upgrade international bad press to international condemnation
5) Invite the South Koreans, the Japanese and the Americans or some combination thereof to invade
Result: Buffer state gone, American/ South Korean/ Japanese power right up to the Yalu. Refugee problem as above, maybe less severe because more North Koreans can run south... but then there's a big fortified border there, so. And no, South Korea is not capable of calming down the situation so much, so fast, and rev up the economy fast enough to make that go away in the short to medium term, not even with Japanese and American help.
6) Rattle sabre.
Result: Get laughed at. The Americans and the South KOreans already do that every year in huge joint exercises. I don't notice the North folding like a house of cards.

In the absence of any realistic option, nevermind one that would produce a result that is better than the status quo, Moscow-Beijing basically has to bite down and grin (hmm, that's a bit hard to do).

In Moscow's case, there's also the 'we don't really give a fuck what happens' thing going on.

If you have a better idea, I am listening.
 
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