dh19440113
New Member
PLAN got its hand on the super felon, various eurocopter and black hawk during the past decades without difficulty. Embargo or not, it hasn't stop the PLA from getting what it wants.
No More EU Arms Embargo On China in 2020
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Deleted member 675
Guest
There are things that China wants that it can't get its hands on. This has been discussed several times so I won't go repeat what has already been said, but things like top-notch avionics, advanced AAW systems for ships, etc from Europe and North America are off-limits to China.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
dh19440113: Embargo or not, it hasn't stop the PLA from getting what it wants.
Yeah, embargoes slow down China's military development, but not enough to stop it from developing at a rapid rate. China's military has been developing at a fast rate even with intensive embargoes by America and Western Europe.
China's military development is like a car moving at 200mph, and embargoes slow it down to 180mph, which is still fast enough to allow China to make up for its late start and eventually reach and possibly surpass other nations' military development.
The main thing holding back China's military development is China's lack of resources, but China's rapidly developing economy is fixing this problem. China's international politics and secret deals are eroding American embargoes, too.
Yeah, embargoes slow down China's military development, but not enough to stop it from developing at a rapid rate. China's military has been developing at a fast rate even with intensive embargoes by America and Western Europe.
China's military development is like a car moving at 200mph, and embargoes slow it down to 180mph, which is still fast enough to allow China to make up for its late start and eventually reach and possibly surpass other nations' military development.
The main thing holding back China's military development is China's lack of resources, but China's rapidly developing economy is fixing this problem. China's international politics and secret deals are eroding American embargoes, too.
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Deleted member 675
Guest
China is quite far behind where it could have been if the embargoes had not been in place. Equally I would not say they cause only a fraction of inconvenience.
"Eventually" anything can happen - I certainly don't see China overtaking Europe and the US in terms of technological advancement for a long time, if at all during my life.
As for China's advancement, past achievements are deceptive. Because China was so far behind previously it looks impressive to see where it has come. But it is not going to achieve the same movement in the same period, as what lies before it is more difficult and will take longer.
right, actually China would probably be behind if embargo was still in place, because it would not be forced to develop all of its own technologies. By not getting the necessary military technology, but still having access to Western development methods, it actually really forced China to develop all of its own military stuff. As for overtaking Europe, let's just say that there is no much that Europe has right now that China would be interested.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
FuManChu:
China is quite far behind where it could have been if the embargoes had not been in place. Equally I would not say they cause only a fraction of inconvenience.
Infra_Man99:
I understand your opinion, but my opinion is that China's development is held back more by lack of resources for research, development, and production, than embargoes. However, China is eliminating this problem with its rapidly developing economy.
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FuManChu:
"Eventually" anything can happen - I certainly don't see China overtaking Europe and the US in terms of technological advancement for a long time, if at all during my life.
As for China's advancement, past achievements are deceptive. Because China was so far behind previously it looks impressive to see where it has come. But it is not going to achieve the same movement in the same period, as what lies before it is more difficult and will take longer.
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Infra_Man99:
It depends on how old you are. If you will probably pass away before 2030, then yes, you are probably correct. After 2030, the odds are in China's favor. This is according to projecting past results and current results. Past and current results are not guarantees of the future, but they are the best known techniques to predict the future, unless you believe in psychic powers and other magical sensing/thinking abilities that you have that no one else has.
Concerning China's development, China's development is not entirely internally relative, but internationally relative as well. Compare China's past with today, you will see incredible internally relative results. Compare China's past to other nations' past, and then compare China today to other nations today. You will see incredible internationally relative results, too. Internally, China is much better "today" than "yesterday." Internationally, China is much better "today" than "yesterday."
Let me give a quick historical evidence: (If you are offended by me using vulgar words, it is not that I am trying to rude, but historically accurate.)
1. During the early 1900s, British people said the sick-man-of-Asia/China would never be able to challenge the inherent superiority of the British military, and that China would always be a colony of Britain and other white people. Before 1950, China kicked out all colonial invaders. Nowadays, China's conventional military can defeat Britain's conventional military and Britain can not, nor even dare, turn China into a colony.
2. During the 1950s, Americans said Ch**k**/China can never defeat the inherently superior US army and marines. Then the Korean War happens and "super advanced" American ground units had to completely run away from pathetic Chinese ground units until American air and sea units amassed to lead the American campaign.
3. During the 1990s, Americans said China's military was based on outdated technology and raw numbers, like the Chinese navy was hopelessly backyard. China would also collapse as a nation. Now its 2007 and Americans say China's military is developing at "dangerously fast" rates, and China's economy is developing so quickly it can "overheat."
4. Summary: Within 100 years, China went from "hopelessly weak" colony for inherently superior White people to one of the few nations/entities(China, Russia, and EU) with the potential to challenge America's superpower status by 2030. Mexico and Latin America may be able to challenge America's superpower status if they continue to unofficially absorb America for aid.
You seem to imply that China's development is easy to do and actually not that impressive. Once again, you are arguing against history. History shows that highly developed or more advanced nations can improve themselves much faster than poorly developed or less advanced nations can improve themselves, or the other way around, history shows that poorly developed nations have a harder time improving themselves than highly developed nations. Of course, history is filled with exceptions (as all things are), and China is an exceptional poor nation because it is developing at an incredible rate despite sanctions, containment policies, and embargoes America/EU have attempted to impose on China.
You know, you don't have to use the entire word and offend other members. Use quotes next time or paraphrase, and no racial slurs.
China is quite far behind where it could have been if the embargoes had not been in place. Equally I would not say they cause only a fraction of inconvenience.
Infra_Man99:
I understand your opinion, but my opinion is that China's development is held back more by lack of resources for research, development, and production, than embargoes. However, China is eliminating this problem with its rapidly developing economy.
-------------------
FuManChu:
"Eventually" anything can happen - I certainly don't see China overtaking Europe and the US in terms of technological advancement for a long time, if at all during my life.
As for China's advancement, past achievements are deceptive. Because China was so far behind previously it looks impressive to see where it has come. But it is not going to achieve the same movement in the same period, as what lies before it is more difficult and will take longer.
-----------------
Infra_Man99:
It depends on how old you are. If you will probably pass away before 2030, then yes, you are probably correct. After 2030, the odds are in China's favor. This is according to projecting past results and current results. Past and current results are not guarantees of the future, but they are the best known techniques to predict the future, unless you believe in psychic powers and other magical sensing/thinking abilities that you have that no one else has.
Concerning China's development, China's development is not entirely internally relative, but internationally relative as well. Compare China's past with today, you will see incredible internally relative results. Compare China's past to other nations' past, and then compare China today to other nations today. You will see incredible internationally relative results, too. Internally, China is much better "today" than "yesterday." Internationally, China is much better "today" than "yesterday."
Let me give a quick historical evidence: (If you are offended by me using vulgar words, it is not that I am trying to rude, but historically accurate.)
1. During the early 1900s, British people said the sick-man-of-Asia/China would never be able to challenge the inherent superiority of the British military, and that China would always be a colony of Britain and other white people. Before 1950, China kicked out all colonial invaders. Nowadays, China's conventional military can defeat Britain's conventional military and Britain can not, nor even dare, turn China into a colony.
2. During the 1950s, Americans said Ch**k**/China can never defeat the inherently superior US army and marines. Then the Korean War happens and "super advanced" American ground units had to completely run away from pathetic Chinese ground units until American air and sea units amassed to lead the American campaign.
3. During the 1990s, Americans said China's military was based on outdated technology and raw numbers, like the Chinese navy was hopelessly backyard. China would also collapse as a nation. Now its 2007 and Americans say China's military is developing at "dangerously fast" rates, and China's economy is developing so quickly it can "overheat."
4. Summary: Within 100 years, China went from "hopelessly weak" colony for inherently superior White people to one of the few nations/entities(China, Russia, and EU) with the potential to challenge America's superpower status by 2030. Mexico and Latin America may be able to challenge America's superpower status if they continue to unofficially absorb America for aid.
You seem to imply that China's development is easy to do and actually not that impressive. Once again, you are arguing against history. History shows that highly developed or more advanced nations can improve themselves much faster than poorly developed or less advanced nations can improve themselves, or the other way around, history shows that poorly developed nations have a harder time improving themselves than highly developed nations. Of course, history is filled with exceptions (as all things are), and China is an exceptional poor nation because it is developing at an incredible rate despite sanctions, containment policies, and embargoes America/EU have attempted to impose on China.
You know, you don't have to use the entire word and offend other members. Use quotes next time or paraphrase, and no racial slurs.
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This is a military forum to discuss maturely and constructively about chinese military matters, not some political flameroom were all kind of BS can be poured.
There are alot if other more suitable forums for this type of nonsense out there. But if you wish to continue posting in here, you better start getting familiarized to our rules and posting code of conduct
You have been offically warned
Gollevainen
Supermoderator
This is a military forum to discuss maturely and constructively about chinese military matters, not some political flameroom were all kind of BS can be poured.
There are alot if other more suitable forums for this type of nonsense out there. But if you wish to continue posting in here, you better start getting familiarized to our rules and posting code of conduct
You have been offically warned
Gollevainen
Supermoderator
Last edited by a moderator:
aquilis182
New Member
Russia defeat the Nazy Germany cause they where overextended, and if you mix the numbers of battle casualties of the USSR and the allied forces vs the Axis (Nazy Germany and its allies) the Nazy Germany lost more besides thy take a very bad time to strike the USSR cause they attack in winter and before finish off the first enemies, a pretty stupid idea if you ask me. However military success does´nt mean political success in the case ov Vietnam War, U.S. defeat nort vietnamese forces in must (if no all) the most important battles but regardless of that U.S. withdraw their forces from the AO and eventually the entire Vietnam become communist that mean U.S. din´d achieve it main goal so U.S.A. politically lost the war. In the case of Iraqui freedoom U.S. goals where tho remove Saddam´s regime, Search for WMDs and if they find it remove the treath, and avoid an Iraqui civil war as a result of the inestability after a war like that.
The last time I see Saddam was hanging of a rope that means U.S.A. achive the first goal, second U.S.A. dind find any WMDs, so they dont have to destroy what they dind find. Third U.S. dind pull their forces yet cause there still probability of a civil war. So if you combine the battle performance wish U.S. trade 1 soldier for nearly 200 iraqi militants with the fact of U.S.A. already remove Saddam´s regime, ensure Iraq have no WMDs and still fighting and defeating nearly 1500 militants per month scince a year ago as the President Bush says in one of his lattest speach regarding Iraq war. Its not hard to figured out why U.S.A. is winning the Iraqi war. Now Lets get back to bussiness. In war you need every advantage as you can even knowing that doesn´t garranteed the victory. That´s why I say China need stealth planes even like the american attacker F117s can be very usefull in canpaings like offensive operations (if China invades Taiwan a stealth attacker can be used to do SEAD operations and clear the way of air defenses for non stealth aircrafs, destroy enemy airfields to achieve air superiority with very little or without the need of air to air engagements just like U.S. did in recent mid east conflicts. In defensive operations in case that some country try to invade China`s mainland using amphibious operations China can use F117 class to sink enemy ships without worring too much about lost their aircraft victim of ship-to-air missiles, and even if the enemy succesfull deploy amphibious forces like amphibious tanks, marine infantry and any kind of these forces a stealth attacker plane can make a short work of them without concerning too much of amphivious SAMs like thouse modify HMVEES with surfaces to air missiles that U.S.A. have (I dind remember the name) besides can save the PLA groun forces to fight with invasor marines. It´s ok if you guys think after reading mi argument than China dind need a stealth attack plane but let me see a better argument why not.
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