No More EU Arms Embargo On China in 2020

FuManChu said:

Then why did it push for the embargo to be lifted so hard in 2005? It clearly needed something then.

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how would you like to be listed with North Korea, Burma, Iran and plus whoever else they were embargo. Just the humiliation of this alone should be enough to push for embargo to be lifted.

Even now, China pretty much has everything it needs from the Europeans. Anyone want to give a list of what China would want from the Europeans?

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Fu: I think you're being paranoid. The EU doesn't want to control China - it isn't comfortable with some of its policies. Would you say China's demands that European states not set up embassies with Taiwan mean that China is "controlling" those countries?
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Please do not make personal accusations. This is a professional forum. Please stay on topic.

Most nations in Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Russia, and East Asia, and all these nations will say that the EU and US has been seeking hegemony over other nations. China has a legitimate claim that the EU/US is trying to control China.

EU and China's relationship is the topic, not China and Taiwan, please stay on topic.

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Fu: They can obtain foreign policy goals, such as the end to a nuclear weapons programme, but that's not the same as a financial goal. Unless he was just referring to foreign policy "deals".
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They worked in the past, but not now. Times have changed. Pakistan, India, and Israel have been getting nuclear energy and weapon technology despite breaking US/EU rules, except for Israel's nuclear projects, which the US/EU secretly supports with great strength. Now the US/EU have unofficially accepted them as nuclear nations. Nowadays, the US/EU is much less able to embargo/sanction other nations to force them to do what the US/EU wants.

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Fu: Who said anything about invasions - where has China been asked to invade anybody?
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I was talking about the EU/US, not China. Please read more carefully.

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Fu: Then why did it push for the embargo to be lifted so hard in 2005? It clearly needed something then.
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A reward you giving someone something for doing what you want. China did is demanding respect. China is not demanding the EU boss China around for rewards.

The Chinese have been overcoming EU/US embargoes by developing China's economy and by trading all over the world. China's economy and trade relationships has a lot to do with dealing with EU/US embargoes.

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tphuang: Even now, China pretty much has everything it needs from the Europeans. Anyone want to give a list of what China would want from the Europeans?
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China wants a lot of things from the EU, US, and the rest of the world. The EU, US, and the rest of the world also want A LOT of things from China. However, everyone wants a free lunch, but no one wants to pay for it. :rofl:


Sorry for the double post. I'll be more careful next time. I can't figure out how to delete my posts, only edit them.

tphuang said:

how would you like to be listed with North Korea, Burma, Iran and plus whoever else they were embargo. Just the humiliation of this alone should be enough to push for embargo to be lifted.

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So then China would benefit from a lifting of the embargo - thanks for proving my point.

Infra_Man99 said:

Most nations in Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Russia, and East Asia, and all these nations will say that the EU and US has been seeking hegemony over other nations.

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And your evidence for this is what, exactly?

Pakistan, India, and Israel have been getting nuclear energy and weapon technology despite breaking US/EU rules

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Actually it's UN rules - you do know that, don't you?

North Korea is an example where sanctions have worked.

EU and China's relationship is the topic, not China and Taiwan

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Actually you could answer my question rather than avoid it. If China is being "controlled" by other countries because it co-operates with them on policy, why isn't China controlling states when it makes them do what it wants over Taiwan?

Your logic applies both ways or it doesn't apply at all.

China did is demanding respect.

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China can't demand policy changes from Europe if it refuses to listen to other countries' complaints about its policies.

The Chinese have been overcoming EU/US embargoes by developing China's economy and by trading all over the world.

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Yet as was pointed out it still wants the embargo lifted. I don't buy the "there's nothing China wants from argument" speech. There are items China would like but can't get.

Read Russian news, Middle Eastern news, Latin American news, African news, and many other news sources to find that many nations (probably most) believe the EU/US has been trying to manipulate them. Just use Yahoo or Google, and you'll easily find them. China has a valid claim that the EU/US has been trying to control China or seek hegemony.

You may disagree with me on the validity of China's claim, but it is a fact that China (Russia and many other nations) believe the EU/US has been seeking hegemony.

By EU/US rules, Pakistan, India, and Israel are CURRENTLY allowed to have nuclear technology, both civilian and military. Previously, they were not. These current rules, whether official or unofficial, both punish and accept these nations as nuclear states. It is inconsistent, but the EU/US previously could not and currently cannot do anything about it. The international community have been dealing with the same inconsistencies.

North Korea did not stop its nuclear program due to sanctions. North Korea stopped its nuclear program due to six party negotiations.

The point of the matter is that China can and has been bypassing EU/US embargoes by developing itself and developing international relationships. If China continues this plan, China can completely bypass EU/US embargoes.


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Fu: Actually you could answer my question rather than avoid it. If China is being "controlled" by other countries because it co-operates with them on policy, why isn't China controlling states when it makes them do what it wants over Taiwan?

Your logic applies both ways or it doesn't apply at all.
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This topic is about EU arms embargo on China, specifically, how China can lift the embargoes. It is not about China and Taiwan. Please stay on topic.

Concerning "Your logic applies both ways or it doesn't apply at all," this message board is not a debate on philosophy, this is a discussion on how China can cancel EU embargoes.


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Fu: China can't demand policy changes from Europe if it refuses to listen to other countries' complaints about its policies.
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That's your rule, not the world's law. We live in a big world with many conflicting laws and changing laws, to say the very least.


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Fu: Yet as was pointed out it still wants the embargo lifted. I don't buy the "there's nothing China wants from argument" speech. There are items China would like but can't get.
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Please read tphuang's comments on why China does not like the EU listing China as an embargoed state. Yes, China does want many things from the EU (and the whole world), just like the EU (and the whole world) wants from many things from China (and the whole world). It is OK for you to disagree, because the world is filled with many opinions, and many people share their many opinions over the internet.

I don't think the embargo would be lifted any time soon. The EU currently has no such plans especially when you include the US, Japan and Taiwan lobby.

I think the best approach for China is to run parallel. This I mean by continue to lobby about the lifting of the embargo with the Europeans and at the same time continue to increase self R&D.

This way, China would continue to make efforts to end the embargo and at the same time gain knowledge of self R&D.

In my opinion, the EU embargo is only for appearance. Should China require a certain technology (not all) from the EU, they could pursue it through unofficial channels.

The embargo I think would eventually be lifted, but not in the near future. The biggest winner for this in terms of business are the Russians. The EU are losing out on defence business. The EU knows this.

Small arms
I assure that China will import a stockpile of small arms such as HK-MP5s, G36c, PSG and other advanced weapons.

arm embargo in this 20th century against certain nation is history of failure, french embargo against israel simple made israel far more efficient,or UK arm embargo against south africa, russia(or soviet) arm embargo against China and egypt also complete failure.
by the time 2020, china technologically pretty catch up if not technological parity with european(or the US in some key technology.)

Yeah, arms embargoes only works sometimes, not all times.

Russia already has its own military industry and takes great efforts to develop it. Embargoing Russia means little to Russia. Also, Russia sells weapons to many other nations and secretly acquires information on America's and EU's weapons from other others.

China is inexperienced in the military industry, but China has been receiving assistance from Russia, sometimes from the EU, and secretly obtains information from nations that receive weapons from America, the EU, and other nations. China is also intensely working on developing its own weapons. The arms embargo is slowing down China's military development, but not enough to stymie China's quickly developing military.

Israel receives LOTS of weapons from America and the EU (at heavily discounted prices, too), so if any single nation stops selling weapons to Israel, Israel can just buy weapons from America or other nations in the EU.

If America or the EU tries to stop weapons transfer to any other nations, these other nations can just buy weapons from Russia or China, and they have been doing this.

Weapons embargoes rarely works, and when it does, it only slows down the sale of weapons, but not enough to stop any nation from developing a military. The world has too many weapons suppliers to stop the flow of weapons. The true main factor in stopping a nation's military development is the nation itself. If the nation is too poor, too corrupt, too stupid, or inexperienced then the nation will have a lousy military.