Night Fight, how do infantry fight in High Tech Era

Its not like that. Tech/network goes down everthing is redundant. you have your phase lines, op-orders, sector/friendly/AO and there are thing U.S ground/air units do on a low tech way that prevent engaging your own.

I think we are getting off topic with going away from night fighting and going into low level C&C. I think if you guys went through 16 weeks of training, 3 months of in-unit field training and then going to war with U.S army you would get a better understanding on just how powerfull,Inteligent the U.S is compared to others. I have trained with forign armys and U.S concepts are much more beyond that of others. not trying to put down other nations armys but its just they way things are. Even Israel went on record not beliving we took out Iraq in less than a month.

I think the PRC is trying like hell to model its forces after the U.S and are doing a ok job. The biggest problem is you have to have total intergration to fight air/land/sea battle with full intergration. Very hard to do and takes billions of dollers and years of planning and conducting practical applications. Remember the U.S has been on the job training pretty much sense 90-2008 with Iraq,Kosovo,bosnia,horn of africa,

Hey Ute, just wondering, would tank be more dangerous to infantry at night than helicopters and aircraft given a level of air protection.

I am wondering if avoiding Tanks and Aircraft is the only way to move at night or there is no way to move infantry on its own at night in open fields.

well to answer your question I would have to say Helo's in a low intensity conflict. If you are the infantry more than likey if you are engaging U.S forces they are going to be looking at you with thermals be it night or day.

The best way to avoid getting hit is to not move. movement is very clear on TIS. So, don't move and get near something big that may generate heat to mask your body heat. I see it all the time when a few 30mm rounds hit a area people starting running out of palm groves in Iraq that would not have been seen.

With the Apache your not even going to hear or see him. He will sit 6 miles out at about 1,000ft and nail your platoon with a thermalberic hellfire or they will have fast movers just kind of flying around masking the rotor sound and nail you with 30mm at 2.5k

fast mover IE F-16 will drop its JDAM by a Special forces troop or UAV marking the target. Now, us tankers are a weird bunch. some gunners will stay with day sites while others like me stick to TIS 100% be it day or night. We will get IR beems from infantry telling us were the OPFOR is and we just light up that building with HEAT and .50 but you have your loader with ANPVS-7 to see the IR beem then guide the gunner to that building. We will fire tracer with a burst of coax to make sure thats the right building via infantry on radio....then unleash hell

NOW, imagine yourself in that two story building when the 120mm HEAT hits it. The HEAT shoots a molten jet as hot as the sun which raises the temp in the building to about 140-200 degrees and a blast wave that will crack your teeth and break your nose if your 40 feet from it. next my .50 is breaking the sound barrier inside of your building. ever been in a building when 45 .50 rounds break the sound barrier in your building or house....there goes the ole ear drums. NEXT and worst of all is the spalding in which hyper velocity pieces of brick,bullets and fragments would spray around and going through your body and the gunner is now pumping hundreds of 7.62mm coax rounds through my .50 holes which then splinter and bouce around the building.

utelore said:

Tech is BRAINS. But, you tell that to the T-62/MTLB company in perfect hull down fighting postitions I smoked at Wadi Al Batin in the dead of night. I think me and my wingman smoked about 114 pretty smart men who were using there brains.

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I don't understand why you would call those Iraqis "pretty smart", tanks, even when hull down, stick out like sore thumbs in the open desert, especially when the Iraqis build berms around their positions using the excavated sand which offer no protection against enemy fire but also sticks out in the open desert.

just the poor bastards could not see at night.thats called tech over brains

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If they had brains, they would realise that since they can't see you in the dark, they should put themselves in a position where you can't see them either.

They did not know. They did not think we could shoot through berms, they did not understand thermal vs image intensifiers, They could not believe we were hitting them at 2-3k they thought it was some kind of aircraft,

They were not stupid men they just had bad Tech and were fighting a 70s war in 91. that's my whole point. I talked to a Iraqi officer who went to Washington st. and spoke great English. He just could not understand why his tanks were blowing up. They had turned off the engines a long time ago and were just using manual override as they thought our satilites which they could see at night passing over would pick up their heat but they did not think are tanks could see in thermal specturm that well.

PS many had good double hull and turret two tier berm system.

utelore said:

NOW, imagine yourself in that two story building when the 120mm HEAT hits it. The HEAT shoots a molten jet as hot as the sun which raises the temp in the building to about 140-200 degrees and a blast wave that will crack your teeth and break your nose if your 40 feet from it.

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Not if you're separated from the blast by a sturdy wall. Maybe the temperature in the room where the shell hits would be raised, but not certainly not the other rooms in a house.

utelore said:

next my .50 is breaking the sound barrier inside of your building. ever been in a building when 45 .50 rounds break the sound barrier in your building or house....there goes the ole ear drums. NEXT and worst of all is the spalding in which hyper velocity pieces of brick,bullets and fragments would spray around and going through your body and the gunner is now pumping hundreds of 7.62mm coax rounds through my .50 holes which then splinter and bouce around the building.

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Again, none of this applies if you're not unlucky enough to in the room where the shells hit. If you're separately by a sturdy wall, the secondary effects like heat, fragments, shockwave will not seriously injure you.

Listen to Utelore, he knows what he's talking about. A 60 lb 120mm HEAT shell going into a house is going to cause serious injury to many, even most people, inside that house, if not kill them, and by a variety of possible effects.

As to infantry night-fighting, one of the effects of all the high-tech has been to force the infantry to operate at night in more of the manner that they would in the day, namely taking maximize advantage of cover and dispersing more. Until fairly recently, NODs and NVGs were generally not of a quality, or issued in a quantity, sufficient to provide much than than a "spotlight" sort of coverage, except in certain circumstances. Even now too much can be made of what present night-vision capabilities are actually capable of. One way to mitigate or defeat these capabilities is to resort to good-old fashioned use of proper cover, just as infantry would do in a broad daylight patrol while trying to see without being seen. It takes thorough training to achieve this, more or less.

In Bosnia, there was this one area where the Serbs were sending out night patrols that were being monitored most of the time by the Canadians stationed in said AO. The Canadians wanted the Serbs to stop their night patrols, and so a Canadian officer invited some of the local Serb commanders to a meeting, and proceeded to show them one of their own patrols being monitored by a Canadian Coyote Recce vehicle after the Serbs rejected the Canadians' claims that their patrols were being monitored. The Serbs at first claimed that what they were shown was a trick. As reality began to dawn on them, they went quiet. After they left, their night patrols ceased for a few weeks. Then they started up again, but were much harder to detect and to track because they took to using the terrain to masking their movements ("Cover"), and minimized their use of darkness and vegetation and the like ("Concealment").

Norfolk said:

In Bosnia, there was this one area where the Serbs were sending out night patrols that were being monitored most of the time by the Canadians stationed in said AO. The Canadians wanted the Serbs to stop their night patrols, and so a Canadian officer invited some of the local Serb commanders to a meeting, and proceeded to show them one of their own patrols being monitored by a Canadian Coyote Recce vehicle after the Serbs rejected the Canadians' claims that their patrols were being monitored. The Serbs at first claimed that what they were shown was a trick. As reality began to dawn on them, they went quiet. After they left, their night patrols ceased for a few weeks. Then they started up again, but were much harder to detect and to track because they took to using the terrain to masking their movements ("Cover"), and minimized their use of darkness and vegetation and the like ("Concealment").

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lol, so it ended up being counter productive?

i do have a question though, how effective are certain means such hiding behind lights and fire to counter night/thermal visions? or merely to use it as a diversion.

Norfolk said:

Listen to Utelore, he knows what he's talking about. A 60 lb 120mm HEAT shell going into a house is going to cause serious injury to many, even most people, inside that house, if not kill them, and by a variety of possible effects.

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Norfolk, we're talking about "buildings" not "houses." Blast effects are dampened by sturdy walls (like reenforced concrete) -- this is a fact. I'm just pointing out that you can't seriously injure people in Floor 3 of a concrete building with a shot to Floor 1.

Roger604 said:

Norfolk, we're talking about "buildings" not "houses." Blast effects are dampened by sturdy walls (like reenforced concrete) -- this is a fact. I'm just pointing out that you can't seriously injure people in Floor 3 of a concrete building with a shot to Floor 1.

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Not if you collapse the first floor and the whole building goes tumbling down.