News on China's scientific and technological development.

mderfox · Sep 29, 2020

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[Shanghai Municipal Government and Huawei signed the Huawei Qingpu R&D Center project to start] According to the Shanghai announcement, on the 27th, the Shanghai Municipal Government and Huawei deepened the strategic cooperation framework agreement signing and the Huawei Qingpu R&D center project commencement ceremony was held. According to the framework agreement, the two parties will adhere to the principle of "pragmatic and efficient, and win-win cooperation", and strengthen technology research and development and demonstration applications in the fields of integrated circuits, software and information services, Internet of Things, Internet of Vehicles, industrial Internet, and smart city demonstration applications. , Integration and innovation. According to reports, Huawei’s Qingpu R&D Center project is located in Jinze Town, Qingpu District, with a total land area of approximately 2,400 mu. The project will build Huawei’s global innovation base.Collapse full textd

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ps:all text is google translate

horse · Sep 29, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
The reality is that SMIC will likely never be as good as TSMC. Why?

Haha!

How viable a company will TSMC will be in 5 to 10 years if the entire country of China is coming after all its business if it refuses to work with them?

Real world, not fantasy world, that is what matters in business.

horse · Sep 29, 2020

mderfox said:
At the end of the day business entity must know how to maneuver and having card to survive. some member said Huawei give priority to SMIC obtain SMEE equipment. I doubt so, if I'm Huawei think thank, either I'm investing in SMIC or poaching their staff to develop own Fab. At the end of the day Huawei need secure their backyard before attacking global market again.

It's no secret Huawei is looking for a reliable supplier of semiconductor chips for,
a) the telecom equipment
b) the high end chips for the cell phones

Huawei should negotiate with SMIC, and give an order.

That is how it usually works. You give them an order and see if they can deliver. That is how you prove yourself in business.

SMIC has a golden chance in front of them, all of China is throwing cash to IC companies. It is a race to be the best, inside China, then the world.

Let us make no mistake about this.

China is coming after anyone and everyone will does not work with it over this semiconductor issue, and the 5G issue.

We think China is mercantilist now? They have not seen anything yet!

styx · Sep 29, 2020

if china start to hit tsmc with espionage and sabotage?

mderfox · Sep 29, 2020

horse said:
It's no secret Huawei is looking for a reliable supplier of semiconductor chips for,
a) the telecom equipment
b) the high end chips for the cell phones

Huawei should negotiate with SMIC, and give an order.

That is how it usually works. You give them an order and see if they can deliver. That is how you prove yourself in business.

SMIC has a golden chance in front of them, all of China is throwing cash to IC companies. It is a race to be the best, inside China, then the world.

Let us make no mistake about this.

China is coming after anyone and everyone will does not work with it over this semiconductor issue, and the 5G issue.

We think China is mercantilist now? They have not seen anything yet!

SMIC already stop supplying Huawei chip. There is no way Huawei will risk their future with SMIC who doesn't make up their mind. SMIC still waiting official from US that they get sanction at the same times hoping US will granted license to supply Huawei. In other word, SMIC still hoping they don't get sanction. so there is no deal with Huawei at this moment.

Throwing money isn't not gonna solve problem. Scientific research take time from theory to product to mass production. If research cost is higher it will transfer to consumers end up product isn't competitive.

From what I predicted, state subsidize/incentive is eligible to all company including domestic and foreign company in upcoming 5 years plan. From Beijing perspective doesn't matter if domestic company or foreigner, as long they build facility in China they have to obey central government rule. if they doesn't make investment in China, domestic company will have upper hand in term of price.

mderfox · Sep 29, 2020

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In the first eight months of 2020, nearly 10,000 companies in China have switched to the chip industry. Among them, the number of companies in Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Shaanxi, Tianjin, Liaoning, Chongqing, and Jiangxi that have switched to semiconductors is 1262, 1230, 905, 277, 239, and 230, respectively. , 169, an increase of 196.94%, 547.37%, 618.25%, 465.31%, 387.76%, 422.73% and 412.12% year-on-year.

These companies that switched to chips found that in addition to related high-tech companies such as Huawei, Xiaomi, Ali, Tencent, there are also companies such as construction and installation, building materials wholesale, non-woven fabrics, plastics, sugar trading, heating equipment, and more. Blockchain, medical beauty, health management, fiscal and taxation consulting, cross-border e-commerce, health care, automobile services, cultural communication, advertising and marketing, human resources and other service companies.

What companies are these TMs?Collapse full textd

google translate from weibo..

AndrewS · Sep 29, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
Amazon made losses for 14 years, but it has huge and growing sales during that time.

It did not rely on government subsidies.

2 points.
Amazon grew as fast as it did because it didn't pay sales taxes to the government. That is an implicit subsidy.
And I did mention venture capitalists as a funding source. Amazon covered years of losses with their funding.

The sales were proof that it was offering a competitive, market-beating product that was surpassing the top retailers of the time. That is why investors piled in. If it was not making sales but only relying on government subsidies to survive, then Amazon would have had no market value either. This is the situation of SMIC. SMIC cannot offer the best product, so it only can rely on direct or indirect government subsidies for revenue.

The reality is that SMIC will likely never be as good as TSMC. Why? Because when SMIC advances one step, TSMC will also advance one step. TSMC is not sitting still either. TSMC, unlike the sanctions-hit SMIC, will have actual sales to the world's leading companies where they can prove their products. SMIC will have, at best, government-subsidized sales going against market rules. It knows it can survive while still building an inferior product, so it will not have the same incentive that TSMC does to make the best product.

That is why SMIC will likely never be as good as TSMC. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm probably not. China had an independent semiconductor industry in the 1980s... and it was inferior. That is likely what China is going back to today. An independent, government subsidized industry and only exists due to protections, but it is inferior in quality and will likely fall further and further behind. In other words the gains of opening & reform will be rolled back.

SMIC is already only one of 3-4 companies in the world which are developing 7nm semiconductors.
That already counts as world-class capabilities.

Plus you forget that the TSMC will hit a EUV technology wall within the next 10 years, where it no longer makes economic sense to develop smaller chips than 2nm. Technologically it should be feasible, but the upfront development costs become prohibitive.

So we're actually looking at situation where Chinese semiconductors can catch up with current DUV/EUV technology, whilst also looking to leapfrog to the next generation of semiconductor fabs.

The big difference with China today is that there is a real market for the latest semiconductors, which didn't exist 20 years ago.

manqiangrexue · Sep 29, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
Amazon made losses for 14 years, but it has huge and growing sales during that time.

It did not rely on government subsidies.

The sales were proof that it was offering a competitive, market-beating product that was surpassing the top retailers of the time. That is why investors piled in. If it was not making sales but only relying on government subsidies to survive, then Amazon would have had no market value either. This is the situation of SMIC. SMIC cannot offer the best product, so it only can rely on direct or indirect government subsidies for revenue.

The reality is that SMIC will likely never be as good as TSMC. Why? Because when SMIC advances one step, TSMC will also advance one step. TSMC is not sitting still either. TSMC, unlike the sanctions-hit SMIC, will have actual sales to the world's leading companies where they can prove their products. SMIC will have, at best, government-subsidized sales going against market rules. It knows it can survive while still building an inferior product, so it will not have the same incentive that TSMC does to make the best product.

That is why SMIC will likely never be as good as TSMC. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm probably not. China had an independent semiconductor industry in the 1980s... and it was inferior. That is likely what China is going back to today. An independent, government subsidized industry and only exists due to protections, but it is inferior in quality and will likely fall further and further behind. In other words the gains of opening & reform will be rolled back.

Don't worry; of course you're wrong as always.

Your logic is as simple as "If a pedestrian is ahead of a car, then the car will always be behind because when the car moves forward, the pedestrian will have moved moved more forward." By your "logic," nothing can ever overtake something else. In the real world, with government subsidies backed by the largest STEM force in the world and a guaranteed slice of the largest market in the world, a Chinese company can overtake anyone, and that's why the US and EU both fear Chinese government subsidies so much. TSMC's like the plane that's always been cruising along smoothly but Chinese fabs, whether it be SMIC or Huawei, are like the jets behind it that are feeding off a rocket boost. TSMC moves forward quickly and smoothly, but unlike China's new fabs, really doesn't have any tricks or reserve strength to speed up when challenged.

gadgetcool5 · Sep 29, 2020

manqiangrexue said:
Don't worry; of course you're wrong as always.

Your logic is as simple as "If a pedestrian is ahead of a car, then the car will always be behind because when the car moves forward, the pedestrian will have moved moved more forward." By your "logic," nothing can ever overtake something else. In the real world, with government subsidies backed by the largest STEM force in the world and a guaranteed slice of the largest market in the world, a Chinese company can overtake anyone, and that's why the US and EU both fear Chinese government subsidies so much. TSMC's like the plane that's always been cruising along smoothly but Chinese fabs, whether it be SMIC or Huawei, are like the jets behind it that are feeding off a rocket boost. TSMC moves forward quickly and smoothly, but unlike China's new fabs, really doesn't have any tricks or reserve strength to speed up when challenged.

So you say. Lots of talk, no result. Easy to talk.

(Still waiting for China's WS-20 engine, will probably still be waiting when my hair is white lol)

manqiangrexue · Sep 29, 2020

gadgetcool5 said:
So you say. Lots of talk, no result. Easy to talk.

(Still waiting for China's WS-20 engine, will probably still be waiting when my hair is white lol)

CCP and the Chinese people deliver results every time. It's like waiting for the sun to rise tomorrow while fools like you yammer at night that it is not here yet.

Why specifically the WS-20? Oh, because the WS-10 and its iterations are already here. There will always be something to wait for as Chinese tech advances. Your hair whitens very quickly as you worry about China overtaking your US ROFL

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