News on China's scientific and technological development.

nastya1

Junior Member
Registered Member
The United States does not have the amount of control over foreign companies you think it does, but neither are they as independent as manqingrexue claims. There are existing fissures in the Western world order that can be used in situations like this.

Consider the latest UN vote on the Iranian arms embargo. The Trump regime was dealt a heavy blow when Europe abstained from the vote. This proves that Europe does have a backbone and will stand with China on certain issues. How much Europe is willing to stick its neck out for the sake of trade with China however is significantly influenced by Chinese diplomancy.

Which is why I recommended a bigger emphasis on soft power for China.

Don't need to physically shut them down. Just make sure that these machines won't be operational after ASML staffs pack their bags and leave. Look, no companies have successfully operated these machines after losing ASML support.

ASML only setup customer equipments initially. After that they have no control.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Your statement is weak.
Your statements are empty, pointless, flat out wrong, and based on nothing other than your imagination.
Based on your reasoning So if i cannot prove the earth is not round then earth is not around?
Your logic is really pathetic. Someone with this level of thinking cannot present any valuable arguments nor can he have respectable knowledge in any scientific field... We know the earth is round because we have evidence. If there was no evidence, of course, nobody can claim it to be any shape.
Even if i cannot prove something explicitly doesnt mean your viewpoint is correct
My viewpoint is that you should prove your claim. In terms of history, it is not necessarily contradictory to yours, just that when you tell a story, it must have evidence if it is not fiction.

I said China IC industry was self sufficient at that time and no one was selling China anything at the time. China created first IC not transistor in 1965. And not many countries accomplished that. That was a fact. Do you have anything to contradict that?
That's not how logic works; you don't just make claims for other people to disprove. You need to back up your claims with evidence; the burden of proof is on you. Just because your basic facts are right does not mean that your conclusions from them are correct. You made some huge statements that China was leading in this tech in the 50's and that it was self-sufficient ( at a leading level as well). So you need to prove both, and you have failed. I don't need to contradict anything.
Does it matter? US can access EUV equipment anyway it wants. No one can deny US. Thats just a fact

What got US fell behind intel got arrogant and didnt spend enough time on EUV research.
Of course it matters. Ownership means that the US was talented enough to develop everything but control simply means political power. When your article said that China was close to the US in semiconductor technology, it meant close to what the US had developed, which is terribly insufficient, NOT what the US controls through fear. Big difference. And what the US controls through fear, it can lose control of when they fear someone else more.

Why are you focused on history instead of now? As things pertain to the current situation, regarding the potential/ability of focused lasers to be used in mass production and on whether companies can hire employees to monitor their systems daily, you were wrong twice. That's most pertinent to today's technological landscape.
 
Last edited:

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well no one country dominates the semiconductor sector anyways. So what's your point?

Does Intel fab it's own 7nm chips? Does TSMC make it's own EUV machine, does ASML make its own lenses?


Well, there have to be Chinese companies making all of these and more... The EUV photoresists, the chemical and plasma etching gases, the EUV plasma producing lasers... Every single piece of it and with Chinese made equipment only...
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
wrong you must be imagining things
they use photoresist
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
“For the inorganic titanium film photoresist, they employed a dual laser beam cross-stacking technique.”

Can this inorganic titanium photoresists be coated unto silicon wafers so that the process described can be used to pattern the circuits of extremely transistor dense chips?
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
China made 2 mistakes.
1)they were self sufficient at semiconductor at early days . But gave up when opened up to US in early 80s just the passenger plane. They were strategic mistakes.

2)In the late 90s or even early 2000s China start to have monies and they should reinvest in semiconductor but they didnt because people think they can make easier money doing something else.

So, they screwed up twice big time.

Yeah, you believe focused laser can do mass manufacturing but companies with EUV can blow you off the water. Not even in the same league.

It might be possible to develop techniques that would use focused laser beams for large scale manufacturing of IC chips, including ones of 5 nm nodes or less...
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Don't need to physically shut them down. Just make sure that these machines won't be operational after ASML staffs pack their bags and leave. Look, no companies have successfully operated these machines after losing ASML support.

But which country has lost ASML support?
 

galvatron

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's why we need to decouple with them. If we make our own shit and use our own currency to sell the stuff we make, then there isn't much they can sanction any more.

Bullying every country into banning Huawei is a lot harder than banning chip exports from Taiwan to Huawei.
Taking Taiwan back is going to happen sooner than you think, if China thinks ethnic Chinese worldwide is under threat, in this struggle between cultures. China should ask for all illegal and random sanctions against Chinese companies to be dropped, otherwise Taiwan will be brought back under PRC control.

If they can randomly ban tiktok and wechat from the app store, what is going to stop them from banning banking apps and food delivery apps? Their intentions are very clear. They are going to disrupt the daily lives of the average Chinese wherever they are.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
This latest sanction is a desparate last ditch effort by the Trump Administration to try to stop Huawei's Business. They probably heard about Huawei's plans to set up FABs to manufacture 40nm, 28nm and eventually 14nm and so forth. Unfortunately they will not suceed in stopping Huawei, just slowing it down a little while Huawei makes efforts in starting its own Chip production FAB with the SMEE 22/28nm Litho machine.

Huawei will be setting up a FAB with Local equipment to produce 28nm Chips next year. This will be sufficient to make FPGAs and SOCs for its 5G Base Stations. I can bet you that 14nm Chips will be produced by Huawei shortly after for its Mobile Phones. The 14nm Chip Tech is mature and is already being produced by a number of FABs in China and Huawei will eventually get its hands on this 14nm Finfet design. After that Huawei will look at 7nm Chips.

SMIC is currently already setting up a FAB in Beijing to produce 28nm Chips using all local equipment. News is that the new SMEE 22/28nm Litho Machine will be used in this FAB.

Apart from the new SMEE 28nm Litho Machine, quite a large number of 14nm to 28nm Semiconductor Equipments will be released by Local Companies by next year. This will allow fully localised Chip production lines to appear by next year.

Overall this latest action by the Trump Admin may delay Huawei by 6-12 months but it will ensure that more FABS with Localised equipment will be built.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Output. The problem is output. For effective photoetching what matters is the total quantity of photons. A smaller wavelength means a higher energy photon. For the same amount of energy input you will get fewer shorter wavelength photons than longer wavelength photons. X-ray light sources certainly exist, but the ones that exist just don’t generate enough photons to make an effective scanner (putting aside how the high energy photons from X-rays cause secondary interactions in your etch process that would pose their own problems). It’s not like generating EUV light was a challenge in principle either. What made it difficult was finding a way to do it that would generate sufficient photon count output for a production quality scanner.
 
Top