News on China's scientific and technological development.

horse said:

1. KYli made a very good explanation. Just want to add a couple of other points to it, as we must be fully clear about the wave lenghts. Although I am not tech myself, when we turn on our phones, it is important we have a clear signal. The short wave length carries more data, faster, but cannot pass through walls. The longer wave length is slower and less data, but has more range.

(Note, if it is not clear for the non-tech people, think of the mmWave as being like your Wifi and the other sub-6 waves as being like your radio, car radio etc. )

2. If your signal travels only short distances, you need more base stations and antenna. Makes sense right?

3. Apparently the Huawei 5G antenna is better at switching between the wave lengths and gives better performance.

Actually, there is too much to talk about on this topic. LOL!

Click to expand...

KYli said:

It is not just the design and manufacture but also the tech. At the beginning of the 5G tech war, Qualcomm and Nokia and Verizon supported the millimeter wave and Huawei supported the centimeter wave of sub-6. mmWave has better speed and capacity but not good at coverage and vulnerable to signal interference. After initial deployment, mmWave is just not ready yet. Verizon, At&t and many telecom vendors were forced to redeploy their resources to sub-6 5G which is Huawei specialty. That means it would take at least a few years for them to make their 5G ready for mass deployment and wide coverage. For the last few months, the US government has been forced to procure spectrum from the military and others to be used for sub-6 to compensate mmWave shortcoming.

Americans wouldn't be conceded that it has made a mistake and lost the 5G war. So it would continue to pursue mmWave and would try to compensate its shortcoming by using sub-6. On the other hand, China would use sub-6 but would enhance its performance by using mmWave in urban area. This mistake would cost Americans to fall a few years behind China in term of 5G tech and deployment. It doesn't mean the US won't have 5G. It just means the US 5G would not be fully ready for sometime and probably many resources were wasted.

As for Europe, most European countries don't have the US problem so using sub-6 5G wouldn't be a problem. The issue is the telecom equipment providers Ericsson and Nokia have fallen behind Huawei. However, Ericsson is still very competitive and not far behind Huawei. It just needs to offer better solution, less expensive products, and more energy efficient equipment with less need of maintenance. Nokia is the one that has a major problem as its chipsets needed to redesign and not ready. Nokia has many delays and telecom vendors are not happy about the quality of its equipment. Although, many telecom vendors were forced to use Ericsson and Nokia so they do have the time to get their shortcomings fix and their equipment would be deployed even if not as efficient and more difficult to maintain.

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AndrewS said:

For telecoms base stations which have access to mains power, you can work with 14nm chips instead of 7nm.

Given the likely production volumes, you're looking at comparable costs for those 14nm chips, but higher electricity consumption.

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KYli said:

It is not just the design and manufacture but also the tech. At the beginning of the 5G tech war, Qualcomm and Nokia and Verizon supported the millimeter wave and Huawei supported the centimeter wave of sub-6. mmWave has better speed and capacity but not good at coverage and vulnerable to signal interference. After initial deployment, mmWave is just not ready yet. Verizon, At&t and many telecom vendors were forced to redeploy their resources to sub-6 5G which is Huawei specialty. That means it would take at least a few years for them to make their 5G ready for mass deployment and wide coverage. For the last few months, the US government has been forced to procure spectrum from the military and others to be used for sub-6 to compensate mmWave shortcoming.

Americans wouldn't be conceded that it has made a mistake and lost the 5G war. So it would continue to pursue mmWave and would try to compensate its shortcoming by using sub-6. On the other hand, China would use sub-6 but would enhance its performance by using mmWave in urban area. This mistake would cost Americans to fall a few years behind China in term of 5G tech and deployment. It doesn't mean the US won't have 5G. It just means the US 5G would not be fully ready for sometime and probably many resources were wasted.

As for Europe, most European countries don't have the US problem so using sub-6 5G wouldn't be a problem. The issue is the telecom equipment providers Ericsson and Nokia have fallen behind Huawei. However, Ericsson is still very competitive and not far behind Huawei. It just needs to offer better solution, less expensive products, and more energy efficient equipment with less need of maintenance. Nokia is the one that has a major problem as its chipsets needed to redesign and not ready. Nokia has many delays and telecom vendors are not happy about the quality of its equipment. Although, many telecom vendors were forced to use Ericsson and Nokia so they do have the time to get their shortcomings fix and their equipment would be deployed even if not as efficient and more difficult to maintain.

Click to expand...

horse said:

1. KYli made a very good explanation. Just want to add a couple of other points to it, as we must be fully clear about the wave lenghts. Although I am not tech myself, when we turn on our phones, it is important we have a clear signal. The short wave length carries more data, faster, but cannot pass through walls. The longer wave length is slower and less data, but has more range.

(Note, if it is not clear for the non-tech people, think of the mmWave as being like your Wifi and the other sub-6 waves as being like your radio, car radio etc. )

2. If your signal travels only short distances, you need more base stations and antenna. Makes sense right?

3. Apparently the Huawei 5G antenna is better at switching between the wave lengths and gives better performance.

Actually, there is too much to talk about on this topic. LOL!

Click to expand...

Then she said how come? They don't have the tech that Huawei has? They are not 5G capable, Huawei holds all the patent etc.

Click to expand...

taxiya said:

I am late to answer questions from @Gatekeeper, then I saw a lot of answers. Some are right, some are not really so. Instead of going through every posts, I'd make a summary:



5G is an open standard, not exclusively owned by any individual company regardless their portion of patent. That means even Huawei is leading the number of patents, other player can implement and by standard have to implement the Huawei patent if that patented solution is the only option in the standard. They just need to pay Huawei. The same goes the other way too, Huawei has to pay Samsung or Ericsson for their patents when making Huawei product if those patents are part of 3GPP standard.

This is to say, Huawei is in leading the development and advancement of 5G but other players are NOT necessarily lagging behind in deliverring product. The advantage of a player whose solution becomes the standard (patent as well) is that the player would have researched into product prototype before their solution becomes 3GPP standard, that is few months advance. Of course other players can try to build thier product open and easy to adpot different solutions. This is doable because the patented solution are usually a formular or function, the bulk of work in pushing the product to market is coding, testing etc.

The confusing part for outsider is that the "tech" is NOT tech after standarization, the challenge becomes the capacity of transforming the "tech" on paper to the other "tech" in a product. "tech" is a fluid moving concept depending on the stage of product development.

The simple answer is that, other players are 5G capable and have full access to the tech on paper and can build their tech in device without Huawei.

This is another reason why Huawei can not be banned from Android or ARM, so long as those are open sources just like 3GPP standard.

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ansy1968 said:

A question for the expert , aside from this company are there others domestic company that producing the same product

from JSCh (pakistan defense forum)

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TANG SHIHUA
DATE: AN HOUR AGO / SOURCE: YICAI

Sinyang Semiconductor to Privately Woo USD216 Million for Two IC Chemical Projects

(Yicai Global) Aug. 17 -- Shanghai Sinyang Semiconductor Materials will raise CNY1.5 billion (USD216 million) from qualified institutional investors to produce high-end photoresist products for integrated circuits and ultra-high-purity chemical materials.

The firm will apply CNY732 million (USD105.3 million) of the proceeds to develop and industrialize high-end photoresist products for integrated circuits, CNY348 million to hike its capacity to produce semi-conductor related ultra-high-purity chemical materials, and CNY420 million to supplement its working capital, the company announced over the weekend.

Sinyang Semiconductor’s stock [SHE:300236] rose 3.85 percent to close at CNY63.61 (USD9.16) at lunch today.

The firm’s Shanghai base will produce the photoresist products, consisting of ArF and KrF photoresist products, per the announcement. KrF thick-film photoresist products are likely to be sold in small numbers next year and mass produced in 2022. ArF dry process photoresist products are expected to sell in small lots in 2022 and be mass produced in 2023, but the announcement omitted details.

Photoresist is a key raw material for making chips. Almost all major technologies and patents of high-end photoresists represented by ArF and KrF products are in the hands of Japanese and US companies and research agencies, and China has to import all ArF photoresist products it uses to make high-end semiconductor chips, of which more than 90 percent are made in Japan, per the announcement.

The firm will also use the money to build its second factory in East China’s Hefei for CNY350 million. This plant, whose construction period is two years, will add 17,000 tons of ultra-high-purity chemical material capacity.

Click to expand...

ansy1968 said:

A question for the expert , aside from this company are there others domestic company that producing the same product

from JSCh (pakistan defense forum)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

TANG SHIHUA
DATE: AN HOUR AGO / SOURCE: YICAI

Sinyang Semiconductor to Privately Woo USD216 Million for Two IC Chemical Projects

(Yicai Global) Aug. 17 -- Shanghai Sinyang Semiconductor Materials will raise CNY1.5 billion (USD216 million) from qualified institutional investors to produce high-end photoresist products for integrated circuits and ultra-high-purity chemical materials.

The firm will apply CNY732 million (USD105.3 million) of the proceeds to develop and industrialize high-end photoresist products for integrated circuits, CNY348 million to hike its capacity to produce semi-conductor related ultra-high-purity chemical materials, and CNY420 million to supplement its working capital, the company announced over the weekend.

Sinyang Semiconductor’s stock [SHE:300236] rose 3.85 percent to close at CNY63.61 (USD9.16) at lunch today.

The firm’s Shanghai base will produce the photoresist products, consisting of ArF and KrF photoresist products, per the announcement. KrF thick-film photoresist products are likely to be sold in small numbers next year and mass produced in 2022. ArF dry process photoresist products are expected to sell in small lots in 2022 and be mass produced in 2023, but the announcement omitted details.

Photoresist is a key raw material for making chips. Almost all major technologies and patents of high-end photoresists represented by ArF and KrF products are in the hands of Japanese and US companies and research agencies, and China has to import all ArF photoresist products it uses to make high-end semiconductor chips, of which more than 90 percent are made in Japan, per the announcement.

The firm will also use the money to build its second factory in East China’s Hefei for CNY350 million. This plant, whose construction period is two years, will add 17,000 tons of ultra-high-purity chemical material capacity.

Click to expand...