News on China's scientific and technological development.

localizer said:

Highly doubt it will be used for the base station chips that underpins the infrastructure. Intel just got into the fray and is using 10nm.

45nm will most likely be used as training/learning and perhaps MEMS production.

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Hi localizer,

thanks , much appreciated.

So the serious and important stage is their plan 28nm fab? can they do it within the 2 year target period?

ansy1968 said:

Hi KYli,

Im not a techie guy myself, a newbie question Maybe you, WTAN, Skywatcher and Localizer and may help. Is Huawei plan 45nm chip fab is for the production of 5g base station chips and other auxiliary? at least from what I read, chip for base station doesnt need the latest node chip like in the cell phone?

Click to expand...

Perhaps 28nm chips for 5G base station. I think 45nm Fab can produce down to 22nm with multi patterning or something like that

The main thing is that SMIC will be able to produce 7nm chips by the end of the year or Q1 2021, thats good enough for most (99.9%) chips

If China’s fabs can reach Intel’s 14nm (2020) performance, then China should be fine for the near term until some genius figures out EUV or something even better.

The gap between 14nm and 45nm where Huawei is starting is too damn big like the first cars.

The <14nm regime is more like today’s cars where most people don’t really need a bugatti or tesla.



Intel’s 32nm 2nd gen i7 (2011) CPUs are still widely used with laudable performance compared to today’s CPUs. Intel and Apple have shown the importance of both good Architecture and Software. The process node is only half the story.

AMD didn’t match Intel performance until last year and the gain could be attributed to the 7nm TSMC node. Apple not only has a lead in architecture and software, but they also have access to TSMC’s latest nodes.

Huawei was aiming to become the Chinese Apple but Apple probably lobbied Congress and Trump to stop that.

Hi antiterror13 and localizer,

Thanks, as always highly appreciated

localizer said:

If China’s fabs can reach Intel’s 14nm (2020) performance, then China should be fine for the near term until some genius figures out EUV or something even better.

The gap between 14nm and 45nm where Huawei is starting is too damn big like the first cars.

The <14nm regime is more like today’s cars where most people don’t really need a bugatti or tesla.



Intel’s 32nm 2nd gen i7 (2011) CPUs are still widely used with laudable performance compared to today’s CPUs. Intel and Apple have shown the importance of both good Architecture and Software. The process node is only half the story.

AMD didn’t match Intel performance until last year and the gain could be attributed to the 7nm TSMC node. Apple not only has a lead in architecture and software, but they also have access to TSMC’s latest nodes.

Huawei was aiming to become the Chinese Apple but Apple probably lobbied Congress and Trump to stop that.

Click to expand...

I still have old desktop with i7 950 Nehalem with 45nm process, I can tell you that is not much slower than my current 10th Gen i7 (10nm) laptop, except the SSD NVMe

Hi localizer, WTAN, Skywatcher and antiterror13

Its really becoming a reality, a Chinese version of Apple with its own OS. A question will Huawei make it an open source for other phone maker to use? or do it like Apple does?

from cnTechPost

Huawei may soon launch HarmonyOS-powered phones
2020-08-16 16:28:42 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0


With the rapid growth of the Huawei Mobile Services (HMS) ecosystem and external environmental pressures, Huawei has begun to consider plans for more devices that it can control itself, such as HarmonyOS-powered handsets, said, citing supply chain sources.

The latest update from the supply chain mentions that Huawei hasn't given up on building HarmonyOS-based phones, the report said, adding that one of the main reasons for its delay is that the ecosystem doesn't have enough apps.

Fewer apps could have led to poor user acceptance, but with the rapid growth of HMS, this issue has been addressed in a big way, the report said.

A number of analysts, including Tianfeng International analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, have previously claimed that Huawei is building a HarmonyOS-powered phone, but it's unclear when it will be launched. Increasingly hostile external conditions, however, could accelerate this, the report said.
Huawei Consumer Business CEO Richard Yu has previously said that Huawei's HMS ecosystem is currently ranked in the top three globally behind Android and iOS.
With continued development in the following years, Huawei HMS is expected to become the most popular ecosystem for users in the global market in the future, and the AppGallery integrated in the ecosystem is the third largest app store in the world after Google Play and Apple iOS.

Last week, Huawei director and director of the Strategic Research Institute Xu Wenwei said that HMS has more than 700 million monthly active users worldwide and 1.6 million registered developers. He said more than 80,000 apps have been integrated into Huawei's HMS Core, and the number of corresponding apps is growing rapidly.
Huawei has recently announced HMS Core 5.0, which opens up its capabilities to cover services in seven areas: App Services, Graphics, Media, AI, Smart Device, Security, System, and more. Huawei's "Core-Terminal-Cloud" capabilities are more fully open.


In Xu Wenwei's view, the future model leader in the OS field should use openness to fight against closure and collaboration to fight against fragmentation.

Huawei's industry proposition is to be open and open-source, build OS ecology together, and support distributed full-scene terminals.
He also revealed that Huawei will hold its developer conference "HDC Together" in Songshan Lake, Dongguan from September 10 to September 12 this year, during which the most important new version of HarmonyOS will be unveiled, namely HarmonyOS 2.0.

localizer said:

I believe what happens is the base 5G technology is licensed as a package to Huawei, Nokia,... who get to further develop on it and put their spin on it and then onto the market. Remember that a significant portion of 5G is built upon previous standards such as 4G/LTE.

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AndrewS said:

fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing terms, as required from the 5G standards body

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

KYli said:

Not a techy guy. Ericsson is 1-2 years behind Huawei, it can still build 5G network with somewhat less efficient gears. It is just that Ericsson 5G solution is more expensive than Huawei 5G solution. So companies using Ericsson 5G solution would either slow down their deployment or pay more for the gears or both. Ericsson 5G gears would also consume more energy and more expensive to maintain.

Nokia is even worse off. Due to the fact that it is using FPGA for its chipsets, Nokia gears are expensive and use more power. That means its gears are not competitive and it was forced to eat the costs to lure telecom vendors. In the end, Nokia is losing money to maintain its market share with its bad products. Companies using Nokia have experienced delays because Nokia needs time to fix its chipsets by using SoCs instead of FPGA.

Click to expand...

Thanks guys,

As you all know I'm not techy. So please bear with me on this. From reading your replies, the 5G tech is there but the other companies is more expensive because their tech is less efficient than Huawei's.

So it is the tech in designing and making the stuff as opposed to the tech of 5G itself. So Huawei's patents are on processes and not not on how 5G itself works. As the other two companies can offer 5G but much more expensive and more difficult to implement and maintain.

Sorry for this simplistic view, but this is how my simple mind make sense of this. And don't forget I got to explain this to my wife who.... how should I put it.... its even less complex than me! Lol

Gatekeeper said:

Thanks guys,

As you all know I'm not techy. So please bear with me on this. From reading your replies, the 5G tech is there but the other companies is more expensive because their tech is less efficient than Huawei's.

So it is the tech in designing and making the stuff as opposed to the tech of 5G itself. So Huawei's patents are on processes and not not on how 5G itself works. As the other two companies can offer 5G but much more expensive and more difficult to implement and maintain.

Sorry for this simplistic view, but this is how my simple mind make sense of this. And don't forget I got to explain this to my wife who.... how should I put it.... its even less complex than me! Lol

Click to expand...

I don't think you can draw a distinction on many of the processes and how 5G itself actually works.
So there are many companies who hold patents on different elements of what can become a 5G standards release.

---

But when you're actually designing and making 5G equipment, Huawei has advantages in being the largest player in China which is the largest 5G market, which drives sales volumes and reduces production costs.

At the same time, Huawei being based in Shenzhen means hardware development is much faster than being based overseas like Ericsson or Nokia.
For example, being based in Shenzhen typically reduces development time from 12 months to only 3-4 months for other consumer electronics products.

There's a old Wired documentary below which explains it all.

ansy1968 said:

Hi localizer, WTAN, Skywatcher and antiterror13

Its really becoming a reality, a Chinese version of Apple with its own OS. A question will Huawei make it an open source for other phone maker to use? or do it like Apple does?

from cnTechPost

Huawei may soon launch HarmonyOS-powered phones
2020-08-16 16:28:42 GMT+8 | cnTechPost

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

0

With the rapid growth of the Huawei Mobile Services (HMS) ecosystem and external environmental pressures, Huawei has begun to consider plans for more devices that it can control itself, such as HarmonyOS-powered handsets,

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

said, citing supply chain sources.

The latest update from the supply chain mentions that Huawei hasn't given up on building HarmonyOS-based phones, the report said, adding that one of the main reasons for its delay is that the ecosystem doesn't have enough apps.

Fewer apps could have led to poor user acceptance, but with the rapid growth of HMS, this issue has been addressed in a big way, the report said.

A number of analysts, including Tianfeng International analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, have previously claimed that Huawei is building a HarmonyOS-powered phone, but it's unclear when it will be launched. Increasingly hostile external conditions, however, could accelerate this, the report said.
Huawei Consumer Business CEO Richard Yu has previously said that Huawei's HMS ecosystem is currently ranked in the top three globally behind Android and iOS.
With continued development in the following years, Huawei HMS is expected to become the most popular ecosystem for users in the global market in the future, and the AppGallery integrated in the ecosystem is the third largest app store in the world after Google Play and Apple iOS.

Last week, Huawei director and director of the Strategic Research Institute Xu Wenwei said that HMS has more than 700 million monthly active users worldwide and 1.6 million registered developers. He said more than 80,000 apps have been integrated into Huawei's HMS Core, and the number of corresponding apps is growing rapidly.
Huawei has recently announced HMS Core 5.0, which opens up its capabilities to cover services in seven areas: App Services, Graphics, Media, AI, Smart Device, Security, System, and more. Huawei's "Core-Terminal-Cloud" capabilities are more fully open.


In Xu Wenwei's view, the future model leader in the OS field should use openness to fight against closure and collaboration to fight against fragmentation.

Huawei's industry proposition is to be open and open-source, build OS ecology together, and support distributed full-scene terminals.
He also revealed that Huawei will hold its developer conference "HDC Together" in Songshan Lake, Dongguan from September 10 to September 12 this year, during which the most important new version of HarmonyOS will be unveiled, namely HarmonyOS 2.0.

Click to expand...

I think it's clear from the statement that the "Huawei director and director of the Strategic Research Institute Xu Wenwei" thinks HarmonyOS has to be open source.

If HarmonyOS remains closed like Apple iOS, it's always going to be a niche player and therefore vulnerable to unilateral US sanctions.

But if HarmonyOS replaces Google Android as a global standard, there is nothing that the US can do to HarmonyOS, and therefore Huawei

Gatekeeper said:

Thanks guys,

As you all know I'm not techy. So please bear with me on this. From reading your replies, the 5G tech is there but the other companies is more expensive because their tech is less efficient than Huawei's.

So it is the tech in designing and making the stuff as opposed to the tech of 5G itself. So Huawei's patents are on processes and not not on how 5G itself works. As the other two companies can offer 5G but much more expensive and more difficult to implement and maintain.

Sorry for this simplistic view, but this is how my simple mind make sense of this. And don't forget I got to explain this to my wife who.... how should I put it.... its even less complex than me! Lol

Click to expand...

It is not just the design and manufacture but also the tech. At the beginning of the 5G tech war, Qualcomm and Nokia and Verizon supported the millimeter wave and Huawei supported the centimeter wave of sub-6. mmWave has better speed and capacity but not good at coverage and vulnerable to signal interference. After initial deployment, mmWave is just not ready yet. Verizon, At&t and many telecom vendors were forced to redeploy their resources to sub-6 5G which is Huawei specialty. That means it would take at least a few years for them to make their 5G ready for mass deployment and wide coverage. For the last few months, the US government has been forced to procure spectrum from the military and others to be used for sub-6 to compensate mmWave shortcoming.

Americans wouldn't be conceded that it has made a mistake and lost the 5G war. So it would continue to pursue mmWave and would try to compensate its shortcoming by using sub-6. On the other hand, China would use sub-6 but would enhance its performance by using mmWave in urban area. This mistake would cost Americans to fall a few years behind China in term of 5G tech and deployment. It doesn't mean the US won't have 5G. It just means the US 5G would not be fully ready for sometime and probably many resources were wasted.

As for Europe, most European countries don't have the US problem so using sub-6 5G wouldn't be a problem. The issue is the telecom equipment providers Ericsson and Nokia have fallen behind Huawei. However, Ericsson is still very competitive and not far behind Huawei. It just needs to offer better solution, less expensive products, and more energy efficient equipment with less need of maintenance. Nokia is the one that has a major problem as its chipsets needed to redesign and not ready. Nokia has many delays and telecom vendors are not happy about the quality of its equipment. Although, many telecom vendors were forced to use Ericsson and Nokia so they do have the time to get their shortcomings fix and their equipment would be deployed even if not as efficient and more difficult to maintain.