New Type98/99 MBT thread

[nemo]

I think the information you have is seriously outdated.

You are talking about information that is 25 years old
(1982 Lebanon), and Syrians use 'monkey' (export model).
Russians since improved their manufacturing standard and
ammunition design. There is nothing basically wrong with
125mm other than two piece ammunition design limits the
length of the penetrator, but even that has been worked around.


You seriously underestimated Chinese also. China actually have
monoblock APFSDS in service before Russian, due to Israeli.

China is not that that impressed with Russian tanks -- that's why they never bought any but borrow the features they think is good. Chinese 125 mm is actually based on their own indigenous 120 mm
developed early '80s, adapted for Russian autoloader.

Chinese are actually better at gun technology than Russia. During '60s and '70s, China had no effective counter against Russian tanks. China did not have the technology yet to improve the shells, so it went for brute force -- more powerful guns. Even the '80s indigenous 120 mm have more muzzle energy than 120 mm L44 used by M1. The most powerful 105 mm in serviced is the 'long' 105mm for Type 59D with the performance figure of 560mm@2k/0 deg.

 

[Norfolk]

I think the information you have is seriously outdated.

Yes, Nemo, you are correct. The specifications for the ZTP-98 125mm smoothbore tank gun mounted on the Type 99 (et al) differ from the Soviet 125mm. Here's what I found:

[URL="http://zmlimr.blogspot.com/2007/05/zpt-98.htm&sa=X&soi=trans"[/URL]

Edited Notation - try original Chinese article at:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And to get article translated into English go 4 posts down to Post #547 and follow the directions there!

According to the article on the ZPT-98 125mm tank gun, the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 2A46M Type-1 125mm tank gun. Is has 25% greater accuracy than the Soviet gun Section 3: Weapon System), and is capable on on-the-move 100% accuracy at 2,000 meters (Section 4: Fire Control System). The Fire Control System has a viewing range of 7,000 to 9,000 metres, can detect targets at 4,000 metres, and identify targets at 3,100 metres (Section 5: Night Vision System).

Still, DongFeng is correct, as confirmed by the article, when he says that the ZPT-98 is a development of the Soviet 125mm. It still uses the Russian 9K119Refleks Tank gun launched ATGM with a range of 4,000 metres (4 missiles per PLA tank armed with ZPT-98), which is the maximum target detection range for the Night Vision System slaved to the Fire Control System developed for the ZPT-98. As is, with 25% greater accuracy over the Russian 125mm (1,600-1,800m), the ZPT-98 therefore has a maximum effective range with sabot of up to 2,250 metres. The PLA tests confirm 100% accuracy on the move at 2,000 metres.

There remains a considerable gap between the 2,250 metres effective range of the ZPT-98 125mm gun and the (offically aknowledged) 3,200 metre effective range of the 120mmL44 used by many Western countries, never mind the improved 52 calbire versions recently entering service. In "The Generals' War" by Michael R. Gordon and Lt.Gen Bernard E. Trainor (USMC ret.), there are accounts of the 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized) M-1A1 tank crews destroying Iraqi Republican Guard T-72s and T-55s at ranges of 3 miles (4,800 metres) as the Iraqis made for the al-Hammar Causeway over the Euphrates River, west of Basra in the 1991 Gulf War. Clearly, given the 2,250 metre effective range of sabot rounds for the ZPT-98, the 4,000 metre range of the 9K119 Refeks ATGM is tactically necessary to narrow the gap. The performance of the NATO 105mm and 120mm tank guns has (so far) negated any need for them to resort to gun-launched ATGM.

As for the Chinese 120mm, it was built under license from Oerlikon. As you know, the PLA installed it on various prototypes, but it was never adopted for general service by the PLA, but offered for export.

 

[RedMercury]

Your source url does not exist. 25% more accuracy over a weapon with claimed effective range of 1600-1800m does not imply 2250 meter effective range. You are comparing apples to oranges. You have no source saying the 2A46M is only effective up to 1600-1800m. You have no source saying the effective range of the ZPT-98. Stories of successful shots at long ranges does not imply effectiveness at such ranges. Accuracy is just a probability distribution and anyone can get lucky. Just because you can, doesn't say anything about how many tries it took you.

Give me a source of the Oerlikon claim, I believe it to be false. The Chinese 120mm is deployed on the PTZ-89 as well as offered for export as a refit to the Type-59.

 

[Norfolk]

This is where I found it:

Quote:

Tianrens' Blog

In an instant illumination can be achieved. It is as easy as turning on a light. The problem is finding the switch in the dark.----from the Ph.D dissertation of Jones Alami (Linköping University) In an instant illumination can be achieved. It is as easy as turning on a light. The problem is finding the switch in the dark Show from the Ph.D dissertation of Jones Alami (Linköping University)

2007-05-28
ZPT-98型坦克研制历史及现状 ZPT - 98 tanks of history and the status quo


三：武器系统 3: Weapon System


China's development before and after the 120-mm and 125-mm anti-tank ammunition, ready to use the former structure, which uses the packaging structure. 125-mm tank gun back in 1985 on research and development success by constantly improving, the stereotypes after the 125-mm tank gun chamber pressure higher than 120 mm tank gun. Finally installed in 98 of the tanks is zpt-98-50 times the diameter of 125 mm high-pressure chamber bore tank gun. The guns are used high-intensity pcrni3nov, muzzle energy than the Russian 2a46m-1-125-mm tank gun raise nearly 45% of the "Leopard" 2a5 m1a1/a2 tanks and the rh-120-120-mm tank gun high of nearly 30%. Because of the tube since the implementation of the compact hydraulic technology to meet the high chamber pressure Gun Barrel strength requirements. To improve the ablative Barrel wear life, using artillery full bore chrome plating process to achieve life of the projectile 700 level, close to the world's advanced level. To enhance the efficiency of thermal protection, and he installed the double-tube heat aluminum sheathing gap, protective efficiency of 70%.


With Russia 2a46m-1-125-mm bore tank gun, ztp-98 tank cannons for the artillery kept transverse wedge from Punch Spring Semi-Automatic Control, which is equipped with mechanical and electrical double-Firing System functions. Recoilless anti-artillery unit for the next home of the band Liquid Drum conditioning after sitting in the retreat of leveraged restraint and belt-shaped needle into the complex regulation of the three-cylinder liquid-gas into the machine components. The chief of artillery 880 mm recoilless normal distance of 280 mm to 320 mm recoilless distance of the largest 330 mm. Gun control the quality of 2.02 tons, artillery kept for 72 kilograms of quality, the quality of the Rotary 2.6 tons. 。 Gun control flexural strength for the 4320 Newton / m, thickness 0.6 mm tolerance, process for the processing of 0.7 Mi bending ears, free of error of 0.18 dense ears. Shooting accuracy than 2a46m Russian type-1 increased 25%.

Zpt-98 tanks with artillery shells species, including the semi-combustible cartridge (too-using the new propellant) tungsten / uranium penetrators Shelling alloy tailpiece stability, stability shaped tail fin and anti-stability-blasting grenades, ammunition base for the 41, which placed two of the automatic loading system the loser shells rotating machines, placed in 19 of the combatants in the various ammunition boxes. 30：1。 In launching the third generation tungsten alloy tailpiece stability sabot penetrators pm (muzzle velocity of 1780 m / sec) in the 2,000 meters from 850 mm breakdown of homogeneous armor, and the latest special alloy penetrators (depleted uranium penetrators) in the distance, the thickness of armor-piercing could reach 960 mm shells at its core aspect ratio for the 30:1. To strengthen anti-tank combat capability, 98 tanks also equipped with a multi-purpose grenades, this is the increase in the high-explosive charge type, more powerful enough to allow tanks of its combat effectiveness. In addition, 98 Russian-made tanks also has Imitation Townsville River / reflection 9k119 type (Western said at-11 "snipers") delivered laser beam riding guided missile system, the car carrying the four general missiles. After improvements, the new system delivered 98 tanks in the gun sights inside a laser transmitter, the missile launch Charge longer, the quality of the whole shells had also increased. The bomb attack may address some circumstances (such as the geostationary launch attacks), the choice of complex trajectory, low-flying targets.

98 tanks automatic loading system imitation since Russian type tanks, the system lost by the rotation of shells, magazine hoist, and pushed for bombs, cartridges laptop out, with artillery Motor atresia, memory devices, automatic loading of distribution boxes, loading board, automatic loading machine board, and the shells of indicator full installation of electrical system components. Automatic loading of the loading angle fixed at 4 degrees, 30 minutes, each of the bomb loading time is 8 seconds. In automatic loading approach, the 98-tank gun shooting speed for the 8 / points, artificial-filled, fell to a shooting speed of ~ 2 / points. Tests show that the automatic loading machine failure rate for the bad spacing. Currently, the newer high-performance, the use of *, convenient operation of the loading system has been successfully developed, will be equipped with the improved tanks, 98.

四：火控系统 4: Fire Control System

In recent years, as the fire control system and made breakthrough progress in key technologies, China has successfully developed a wide range of automatic tracking and fire control and aiming system by the combination of the death of fire control system. In 98 of the modified tank, the installation of observation is the latest derivative of the death of Ecumenical fire control system. Aiming I. Ecumenical the death of a fire control system can fire automatic calibration results of the implementation of the Fire Control System, if the first launch? ? Deviations from the distance and velocity automatic fire control computer input to the next amendment of the shells immediately after the shooting, has greatly enhanced the time of the shooting. In the dead of fire control systems, automatic real-time measuring how the impact point and automatic error correction, fire control system is the application of this premise and key technology. System must have automatically tracking and automatic target tracking devices and sensors projectile. Tracking the current target of achieving automatic tracking, automatic tracking device available CCTV and thermal imager realized; Automatic tracking projectile used miss distance sensor (such as radio positioning sensors and sensor views, etc.) to achieve. The thermal imager can target the thermal characteristics of tracking targets, but also the use of projectiles features automatic tracking of projectiles, which can be as automatic tracking device and miss distance sensor. Since the death of fire control system is based on distance from the real-time automatic correction on the basis of artillery have therefore requested to high velocity, such projectiles can shorten the flight time correction to the rapid firing. Death of a fire control system can significantly increase the second bomb hit rate for the shooting of high-speed cross-country road goal effect. 在 In the test, 98 improved in the 2000 meters from tanks on the campaign targets the 46 second after the (artificial), a 100% hit rate.

五：夜视系统 5: Night Vision System

Currently, China has successfully developed second-generation thermal imager, the thermal imager without photoelectric scanning, the detector directly receive the full field of view thermal radiation signal from image staring, staring focal plane also called thermal imager. Its range up to 7 ~ 9 km, sensitivity and resolution than the first-generation thermal imager has greatly improved and compact structure, low cost, the average time to failure for 40 hours, visibility was only 100 meters in the harsh environment found on the target distance of 4,000 meters, 3,100 meters distance Recognition . The thermal imager has been installed on 98 tanks were improved.



Terry Lau

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-Unquote


As for the 120mm being produced under license from Oerlikon, that information is on an earlier post on I think the T-80 thread. I'll look it up.

You are right that the 3 mile engagement range of the US M-1 A1 tanks in 1991 against Iraqi T-72 and T-55 does not imply effectiveness. It flat out demonstrates the 120mm gun's effectiveness, as the T-72s and T-55s were DESTROYED at ranges of 3 miles. If you do not believe the book "The Generals' War" by Michael R. Gordon and Lt.Gen. Bernard E. Trainor, then you can look up the after action reports that are cited in the book for confirmation. If you do not find that sufficient, then PM Utelore, he is a VIP member of our forum. He was there as an M-1 tanker in the 1991 Gulf War.

Yes, on Page 4 of the T-80 Tanks thread of the Land Warfare Forum on this forum, on Post #54, crobato states that the 120mm gun was produced under license from Oerlikon and mounted on the Type 89 SPG and the Type 59 MBT. On Post#56 on the same page, fishead says (in reply to the Post #55 that advocates adopting the 120mm for PLA tanks) the reason that 125mm is used instead is because the 120mm gun's one-piece ammo is too complicated for the autoloader already used.

I will look up the 2A46M Type 1 performance figures.

My apologies for the extreme length of this post, tphuang. Believe it or not, this is the edited version of the article.

 

[Norfolk]

Yes, I found the Soviet 125mm gun (on T-72) performance figures at:

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Type that address in.

This is an edited, copied excerpt from that page (lacking photographs and graph lines/boxes):

Quote:

It is possible that the T-72AG retains the original 125mm 2A46 smoothbore gun when being upgraded. However, as the original weapon system errors are considerable when the gun is fired, this leading to a lower tank gun accuracy and to degradation of the performance of the whole weapon system, it would be expedient to replace the current gun with a Ukrainian-made updated 125mm gun designated KBM1in order to achieve the highest hit probability from the tank weapon system not only in static engagements, but also in moving target or moving-own-vehicle engagements. The KBA1 gun has two recoil brakes rather than one available in the original main gun of the T-72. The KBA1 gun has enhanced characteristics and can be easily installed instead of the original gun without any major changes to the tank design. The gun has a quick-replacement barrel, which can be changed under field conditions without the need to remove the gun from the tank.

The armament and the fire control system of the original T-72 can only make it possible to efficiently engage targets when firing static versus static engagements. The fire efficiency decreases dramatically in case of firing from a stationary position at a moving target or firing on the move at static and moving targets.
The original TPN-1 (TPN-3) night sight with dependant line of sight and nigh visibility range in the active mode of 300-600 m is replaced with a gunner's TO1-KO1E night sighting system which includes a TPN-4E night sight. This sight has a night visibility range of 1,200 m in the passive mode of operation. The line of sight is stabilised in the vertical plane and has an electric connection to the main gun. When firing at night by using the TPN-4E sight, the target range is measured with the help of the laser range-finder of the 1G46 sight. In so doing, the tank ballistic computer calculates and introduces angles of sight and lead angles.

In the original T-72 tank, the main armament cannot be operated by the commander.


Specifications
Main characteristics T-72 T-72AG
Weight (t) 41.5 45.5
Max road speed (km/h) on dry natural soil road (km/h) 60 65
(75 with high-speed gear-box)
Average speed 32-38 40-45
Engine power output (hp) 780 1,000 (1,200 if 6TD-2 engine is installed)
Power-to-weight ratio (hp/t) 19 21.7 (26.08)
Specific fuel consumption (g/kW-h) 245 218
Periodicity of air cleaner cassette maintenance under extreme dustyconditions (km) 300 1,000
Deep fording without preparation (m) 1.2 1.8
Commander’s sight
Type
observation device TKN-3 day/night sight TKN-4S
Target detection range (m)

by day
2,000 5,000
at night
400 700
Field-of-view stabilization
no in one axis
Fire control override mode
no yes
Gunner’s day sight
Type
TPD-K1 1G46
Target detection range (m)
4,000 5,000
Field-of-view stabilization
in one axis in two axes
Line-of-sight stabilization error (mrad)
0.5 0.2
Magnification
8 (fixed) 2.7 to 12 (zooming)
Gunner’s night sight
Type
TPN-3 (passive/active) TPN-4 (passive) or thermal imager
Target detection range (m)
400 (without illumination) 1,200 or 3,000
Effective firing range (m)

APFSDS
1,800 [T-72] 2,500 [T-72 AG]
guided missile
no 5,000
Tank ballistic computer no yes

-Unquote

As you can see at the bottom here (or go to the Global Security site instead, it has the specifications near the bottom with several pcitures at the very end), the original T-72 with sabot has an effective range of 1,800 metres, while the imporoved Ukrainian model, the T-72 AG increases its range with sabot to 2,500 metres. I believe that the 25% accuracy improvement of the ZPT-98 125mm gun on the Type 99 over that of the orginal T-72 2A46M1 still amounts to a reasonable figure of 2,250 metres. It certainly is not going to be much higher.

Still well short of 3,200 metres for German/US 120mm. The ZPT-98 is a more powerful gun than any Western gun in terms of sheer energy generated, but it still lacks the accuracy of the Western designs, and that, along with their ammunition, makes them more effective then the Russian-derived designs the PLA prefers to use at the moment, the Type 99 MBT inclusive.

Once, again, my apologies to tphuang. This is my last long quote of an article on this thread.

 

[Norfolk]

Here's the link that I tried to post on Post # 545 on this thread (two posts ago) on the performance of the ZPT-98 on the Type 99 MBT. The relevant portions of it are (crudely) translated into English two posts ago (Post # 545).

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Ah, that's better!

And for those who want to see the original article in English, go to Google.com, type in ZPT-98 zmlimr in the search box, and it will give you the first (of very few options) of same, but with the Google Translation option right beside the title. Click on Transaltion, and you will get the full colour article (with a Type 99 MBT staring you straight down the barrel at the top), with the relevant portions (the first two-thirds) translated into English. If you are in a hurry, just scroll way down to Sections 3,4, and 5. The relevant performance information on the Type 99 MBT's ZPT-98 125mm gun is there.

 

[RedMercury]

So your assertion of 2250 meters hinges on your guess that it is 25% more than the original 1800 meters. Plus you still haven't shown how 25% more accurate means 25% more effective range. Even if the 25% more is correct, it could just as well be 25% more than 2500 meters, which would be 3125, comparable to the published specs for the western 120. Pardon me while I remain skeptical of your blatant biases.

 

[Norfolk]

Red Mercury, the 25% accuracy improvement figure, as the article clearly shows, is not made up, and that is 25% over 1,800 metres (the 1,800 metre figure is from Global Security, and I provided the link - Global Security has a vast array of resources to offer, and they are credible). A 25% increase over 1,800 metres is 2,250 metres - and that 25% is from a clearly Chinese source and it was clearly referring to a 25% increase in accuracy over the 2A46M-1 (I gave the link to that as well, in two separate places after you found the old link to not work), not Western. Given that the 2A46M Type 1 has an accurate range of 1,800 metres, therefore an improvement of 25% on this would mean an accurate range of 2,250 metres for the ZPT-98. There is no possibility that a 25% increase in accuracy on 1,800 metres will extend the accurate range (the range at which a tank can reliably expect to consistently hit its targets) to much greater distences than 2,250 metres. 25% increase in accuracy will not lead to a 50% increase in accurate range. A 25% increase in accuracy over 1,800 metres means exactly that, 25%, or 2,250 metres.

Go back to the sources that have been posted. They are clear and factual. Analyse the performance of the 2A46M-1 and the ZPT-98 on the basis of those specifications. You have been provided with clear sources of information regarding each of the points you have raised. None of the sources have been ambiguous, they have been flat-out plain. If you you do not find them credible, you must provide sources yourself that provide clear information to the contrary to demonstrate the veracity of your disputations. Assertions will not do; clear, sourced facts that can be verified need to be presented to prove the case to the contrary.

 

[nemo]

If there is a limitation of the effective range, it's most likely NOT because of the gun or shell. Pakistani fanboys are bragging Al-Khalid's gun (export version of Chinese 125 mm) has a ballistic range of 14km -- not that it is useful or can hit anything at that range.

Note however, even at that range, there is a non-zero possibility that it will hit the target. Fire enough times, you will eventually get a hit. Hence I have a hard time believing your assertion that the gun suddenly becomes ineffective when the target is at a given range.

 

[Norfolk]

If there is a limitation of the effective range, it's most likely NOT because of the gun or shell. Pakistani fanboys are bragging Al-Khalid's gun (export version of Chinese 125 mm) has a ballistic range of 14km -- not that it is useful or can hit anything at that range.

Note however, even at that range, there is a non-zero possibility that it will hit the target. Fire enough times, you will eventually get a hit. Hence I have a hard time believing your assertion that the gun suddenly becomes ineffective when the target is at a given range.

Tank guns, of course, can be used in an indirect fire role, as can virtually all artillery, and tank gunners are required to learn a bit about indirect firing tables, though not to the extent that their artillery counterparts do, whose bread and butter are indirect fires; for tank gunners, their bread and butter are direct fires.

As for a drop in accuracy, I'll give the example of a rifle. Most Soviet 7.62mmx39mm rounds are more or less accurate out to 300 metres, as was the original US 5.45mmx45mm, but between 300-400 metres the flat trajectory of the round drops off sharply; that's why such rifles are rarely fired at ranges of over 300m, because they can't reliably hit any point target. All guns, small arms or artillery, are affected by the same drop-off; the Soviet 2A46M-1 in the indirect role has a range of about 11,000 meters (the gun tube has to be elevated as far as it will go to do this) to achieve a ballistic trajectory, but in the direct role the flat trajectory of the gun drops off dramatically after 1,800 metres (it actually starts dropping appreciably by 1,600 metres, but that drop can be compensated for by properly trained gunners).

The ZPT-98 has, as shown on the article posted on Tianren's Blog, an improved accuracy of 25% over the 1,800 metres of the Soviet 2A46M-1. By comparison, the Ukrainian T-72 AG (which is featured alonside the original Russian T-72 on the Global Security article that I posted the link to) has an accurate range of 2,500 metres using the Ukrainian KBA1/KBM1 125mm gun, which, like the Chinese ZPT-98 is a development of the original Soviet 2A46M-1. Given that, the 25% improvement in accuracy of the ZPT-98 over the original Soviet 2A46M-1 that is given on Tianren's Blog which works out to an accurate range of 2,250 metres is logical. Even if the ZPT-98 shares the 2,500 metre range of the improved Ukrainian KBA1/KBM1, it is still considerably shorter than the published 3,200 metre range of Western 120mmm tank guns.

Provide hard evidence, not personal doubts or conrary assertions, unless you have the hard evidence to back it up. No such evidence has been provided so far to disprove what facts and specifications that have been published and which I have provided either direct links to, or titles and names of authors for. Prove otherwise. Assemble clear, unambiguous hard facts and specifications from reliable sources that can be verified. That is the only way to reliably demonstrate a case.