New Type98/99 MBT thread

[TerraN_EmpirE]

From a distance as we watch the PLA tank program I think it can be safely said that the Chinese have chosen a point in between.
the Type 99 has caused continually been modified and altered forming the basis for export and new indigenous tank verities. It seems to me that the PLA will continue to build the Type99 and add new technologies and features to it as they become available.

 

[jobjed]

Latest Russian T90, south Korean K2, Singapore Leopard 2SG. On par is Indian t90, Russian and most everyone's T72, Japanese Type 90 and type 10, North Korean latest T90 clone. That's just thinking in the neighborhood if you want to expand since you mentioned the English challanger which is hardly in Asia please feel free to ask.
oh you did goodie.
German leopard 2A7+, french amx30. That's not counting the Israelis Merkava 4 or American M1A2 Tusk

The Type-99 is designed for the needs of the PLA, all the other tanks are designed for the needs of their respective countries. There's no absolute parameter which you can judge all the tanks together.

 

[antiterror13]

Latest Russian T90, south Korean K2, Singapore Leopard 2SG. On par is Indian t90, Russian and most everyone's T72, Japanese Type 90 and type 10, North Korean latest T90 clone. That's just thinking in the neighborhood if you want to expand since you mentioned the English challanger which is hardly in Asia please feel free to ask.
oh you did goodie.
German leopard 2A7+, french amx30. That's not counting the Israelis Merkava 4 or American M1A2 Tusk

I don't think Russian T90 is better than Type 99

SK K2 is not in service yet (apart from few prototype) .... so ... out

Singapore Leo 2SG ... seriously you are comparing PLA tank with Singapore ?

 

[rhino123]

I don't think Russian T90 is better than Type 99

SK K2 is not in service yet (apart from few prototype) .... so ... out

Singapore Leo 2SG ... seriously you are comparing PLA tank with Singapore ?

SK K2 is just prototypes, yes. Are they going to be prototypes for all of eternalty? Again... funny mentality.

Again... Singapore Leo 2SG is nothing in comparison to China Type 99 in term of numbers. And Singapore even with all of her military is nothing in comparison to China's one region only. So we do not need to look at Singapore.

Japan's Type 10, Russia T-90 (might not be as good as the Chinese's Type 99 - actually not sure up to this point) that doesn't mean China had the best in the region. Even if China had the best tank now... that doesn't mean she would have the best tank forever. Like I have mentioned, China, US and all other powers needed to move forward, don't they?

Or are you implying that since no one could attack the Chinese now on land, means they could relax their ground force or tank development (pretty short-sighted, I would say).

Plus, I did mentioned that the Chinese new tanks could also appeal to international market which actually had quite a big demand if the quality, prowess and price is right.

 

[hkbc]

So your point is... the Chinese should stand still and let be for their armour unit because they have 'all their base covered', while many of her neighbours are moving forward. See the point I am making?



Other forum members had answered. And it is with your mentality that, "I am the best now, so I should stand still" that I find appalling.

Ranting about been left behind when there isn't even a race is delusional. What threat, what neighbours are steaming ahead with tank development that's going to roll over the current PLA tank fleet?

The US Abrams M1A1 is slated to stay in service till 2021 and the M1A2 till 2050. So you would have the PLA refresh it's tank fleet? for what?

The Russians have stopped ordering T95s and are waiting for T99s to be ready for production

The answer is no one. Besides technically superior tanks lost at the Battle of the Bulge and at Kursk, end of the day soldiers win wars.

More to the point does the T99 need more armour, bigger gun, faster speed or more range to be competitive with the non-existent competition?

The Chinese Arms industry is opaque, development is not the same as production so do you have some top secret insight into their design process that tells you they've stopped development?

Finally, there's a DMZ and 1 million men of the North Korean People's Army between South Korea and the Chinese border so unless NK plan to wave them and their entire logistics train through or those superior SK tanks plan to swim, in which case the PLA needs better ships and subs not tanks, there's not going to be a tank battle with SK or for that matter Singapore or the Japanese.

My mentality is "I am happy with my BMW, I rather have a nicer house than a Rolls Royce"

 

[chuck731]

Please tell me which country in Asia and Europe has better tank than China in significant number. For example even Challenger 2 may be a better tank than Type 99, but the British has only ~300 in operational, so an insignificant number!

The total number of type 99 in Chinese service is comparable to 300, and thus insignificant by your estimation.

As it turn out, the number of t99 built by china is much less than the number of G3 MBT built by western powers like Germany and the US during the cold war, and comparable to number of upgraded g3 tanks countries like Germany and Italy retained in service today.

The era of massed formations of mass produced tank in wars between elite powers is over. swarms of 2nd tier tanks might still impress second rate powers, but they are death traps, vulnerable to even submunitions, in any conflict with advanced powers.

Any tank that doesn't have a meter of advanced composite armor in the frontal arc, and at least 300mm of armor spacing on the roof, might as well be written off before entering battle with a well equipped contemporary army to save their crew.

 

[chuck731]

SK K2 is just prototypes, yes. Are they going to be prototypes for all of eternalty? Again... funny mentality.

Again... Singapore Leo 2SG is nothing in comparison to China Type 99 in term of numbers. And Singapore even with all of her military is nothing in comparison to China's one region only. So we do not need to look at Singapore.

Japan's Type 10, Russia T-90 (might not be as good as the Chinese's Type 99 - actually not sure up to this point) that doesn't mean China had the best in the region. Even if China had the best tank now... that doesn't mean she would have the best tank forever. Like I have mentioned, China, US and all other powers needed to move forward, don't they?

Or are you implying that since no one could attack the Chinese now on land, means they could relax their ground force or tank development (pretty short-sighted, I would say).

Plus, I did mentioned that the Chinese new tanks could also appeal to international market which actually had quite a big demand if the quality, prowess and price is right.

Leopard 2GS is nonetheless the best protected and most survivable tank in Asian service, better than even leopard 2a6 in German or Swedish service. The firepower of leopard 2 with 120mm L55 is the best in the world, and the fire control and network capability at least equal to the best elsewhere. So leopard 2SG should be the bench mark to aim for if you want a real 21st century tank.

The fact that leopard 2, designed 40 years ago, should remain the basis of the best tanks in the world, suggests one should not too easily write off an adaquate chassis in pursuit of something new whenever the whim strikes. Unless these is something fundamentally wrong with the type 99 chassis, it could probably remain an adaquate base upon which continuous upgrades can build a competent tank for a long time to come.

 

[Blackstone]

Leopard 2GS is nonetheless the best protected and most survivable tank in Asian service, better than even leopard 2a6 in German or Swedish service. The firepower of leopard 2 with 120mm L55 is the best in the world, and the fire control and network capability at least equal to the best elsewhere. So leopard 2SG should be the bench mark to aim for if you want a real 21st century tank.

The fact that leopard 2, designed 40 years ago, should remain the basis of the best tanks in the world, suggests one should not too easily write off an adaquate chassis in pursuit of something new whenever the whim strikes. Unless these is something fundamentally wrong with the type 99 chassis, it could probably remain an adaquate base upon which continuous upgrades can build a competent tank for a long time to come.

You'd put the Leopard 2GS over M1 Abrams (some are in the Australian Army)? The Abrams have proven records through conflicts large and small, and in all conditions, except peer to near-peer warfare.

 

[chuck731]

You'd put the Leopard 2GS over M1 Abrams (some are in the Australian Army)? The Abrams have proven records through conflicts large and small, and in all conditions, except peer to near-peer warfare.

Yes, I would put Leopard 2A6 easily above M1A2, and Leopard 2A7 or Leopard 2GS easily above M1A2 TUSKm based on the depth of their armor protection, the specification of their weapons, and the type of their power plants.

The value of M-1's "provenness" in comparing its merits to those of other tanks is zero because no comparable test on other tanks have been done to show whether M1 is performing below, at or above average for a vehicle of its generation.

It's like claiming I aced the test simply because I am the only one who took the test.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Australia is it's own content, now looking at it from protection alone the SG leopard 2 is better protected and slightly better armed. AMAP modular armor, L55 main high pressure main gun. The American Abrams has better power to weight from its gas turbine engine but its armor is slightly inferior, its only been in the last few years that she got reactive armor as part of tusk. Her main gun is based on the L44, which is shorter then the Leopard 2's giving a lower pressure to make up for it the US uses Depleted uranium rounds, still we have yet to see the next Abrams the M1E3 is under development and will hopefully up the game.
Personally I would have argued the Israelis merkiva 4 as being tops, great frontal armor, state of the art hard kill, modular armor good gun, and secondary fire power. But chuck's point stands and its one of the points I was trying to make. Right now type 99 is not a world beater, but then no one has a world beater. Unless its third Generation vs second generation there is no easy win.
its like the battle between the Csa Virginia and the Uss Monitor, both were iron clads both went in and slugged it out but the only reason the battle was "won" was because the Virginia realized the futility of the fight.