New Type98/99 MBT thread

[IronsightSniper]

Well if you have proof, the spy agencies of many a western country would be very keen to speak to you.

No, I don't have proof, and neither do you, so it's okay for you to assume that the Type 99 is made out of either Paper or Admantanium because no one actually knows.

You do realise that Letz stated pretty clearly that his estimate is based on the assumption that the Chinese/Russians are using similar materials and technology for their tank armor right?

You do realise that DU is not some magical substance that only the US can make right? Hell, its not even the Americans that invented chobham armor.

It is as much of a baseless assumption to presume that in 2010 the Chinese could not make something similar to chobham armour that was first invented in the 60s as it is to assume that they have something similar.

What more, you really should brush up on your reading. Heavy metal layers were added to chobham armor primarily to counter improving soviet KE rounds. Ceramic basic chobham armor was pretty effective against HEAT rounds to start with.

Ah I see, thing is, Chinese and Russians don't use similar materials. That's a plain and simple fact.

Well thats clearly a wrong statement and does not make any sense the way you explained it. I, and I dare say the vast majority of others, took that as you saying M829A3 will defeat the Type 99's armor with or without ERA.

I have never encountered anyone who has ever claimed that ERA alone would be able to stop any tank round. Their entire purpose is to add that little bit more protection that makes the difference between mission kill and vehicle killed.

That fact of the matter is that ERA does make a whole world of difference against M829A3, because with ERA, a penetrating hit suddenly becomes a non-penetrating hit. A pretty massive difference I would think.

Please read that again, I never said that the M829A3 will kill a Type 99, ANYWHERE! I said that Relikt ERA will be destroyed by M829A3, and I never said anything as to regards.

Thing is, (because you didn't read it again), I never said M829A3 v.s. Type 99 w/ Relikt, I said Relikt.

Now if you're going to say this same argument again I might as well just ignore you :coffee:

 

[plawolf]

Ah I see, thing is, Chinese and Russians don't use similar materials. That's a plain and simple fact.

And you know this because the Russians and Chinese provide you with detailed briefings of their material sciences with your morning coffee?

Please read that again, I never said that the M829A3 will kill a Type 99, ANYWHERE! I said that Relikt ERA will be destroyed by M829A3, and I never said anything as to regards.

Thing is, (because you didn't read it again), I never said M829A3 v.s. Type 99 w/ Relikt, I said Relikt.

Now if you're going to say this same argument again I might as well just ignore you :coffee:

That plainly makes no sense at all. ERA by its very nature is designed to be destroyed on impact. Saying M829A3 will destroy an ERA block on impact is stating something so obvious that its comical.

Even if you did not explicitly state that you think the M829A3 will kill an ERA protected Type 99, that is what your words were implying, since no-one else would expect you to mean what you insist you were trying to say as we assumed you to have some basic understand of the subject matter and would not be making such illogical statements.

What ERA is designed to do is add enough protection to a tank that a penetrating hit becomes just a hit. If it does that, it has successfully carried out its purpose and the fact that itself is destroyed in the process is completely immaterial.

Just like how its irrelevant if a Challenger's chobham armor is a write-off after a hit provided the round did not penetrate. Armor's effectiveness is judged on whether it stopped the incoming round from killing your tank, not whether that same armor can be used another day.

 

[IronsightSniper]

And you know this because the Russians and Chinese provide you with detailed briefings of their material sciences with your morning coffee?

Estimates, pictures, analysis, etc.

That plainly makes no sense at all. ERA by its very nature is designed to be destroyed on impact. Saying M829A3 will destroy an ERA block on impact is stating something so obvious that its comical.

Even if you did not explicitly state that you think the M829A3 will kill an ERA protected Type 99, that is what your words were implying, since no-one else would expect you to mean what you insist you were trying to say as we assumed you to have some basic understand of the subject matter and would not be making such illogical statements.

What ERA is designed to do is add enough protection to a tank that a penetrating hit becomes just a hit. If it does that, it has successfully carried out its purpose and the fact that itself is destroyed in the process is completely immaterial.

Just like how its irrelevant if a Challenger's chobham armor is a write-off after a hit provided the round did not penetrate. Armor's effectiveness is judged on whether it stopped the incoming round from killing your tank, not whether that same armor can be used another day.

It makes perfect sense. ERA is designed to be destroyed but it's effectiveness is measured at how much of the projectile it takes out. What I'm simply stating is that Relikt will do no good against M829A3.

Implications and Inferring are different than what I'm actually saing, I'll tell you what I mean.

 

[Lezt]

No, I don't have proof, and neither do you, so it's okay for you to assume that the Type 99 is made out of either Paper or Admantanium because no one actually knows.




Ah I see, thing is, Chinese and Russians don't use similar materials. That's a plain and simple fact.



Please read that again, I never said that the M829A3 will kill a Type 99, ANYWHERE! I said that Relikt ERA will be destroyed by M829A3, and I never said anything as to regards.

Thing is, (because you didn't read it again), I never said M829A3 v.s. Type 99 w/ Relikt, I said Relikt.

Now if you're going to say this same argument again I might as well just ignore you :coffee:

What if China and Russia used different formulas for their armour? Philosophically, we know that the designers are not stupid and is likely to have sufficient confidence in their design to withstand threats they perceive. Necessity is the mother of all invention, if the Chinese designer is looking at the M829A3 with a safety margin for the A4, do you think they will develop and mass produce something which cannot stand a chance?

Physically, does it really matter what the exact composition is for academic reasons? It is just like arguing and bickering over armor protection for world war I battleships during the turn of the century. sure krupp face hardened plates may be a bit more efficient in defeating incoming projectiles but each nation developed their own formulations according to their available resources and technologies. At the end of the day, the quality of armor is comparable if not relatively the same.

I would believe current armor technologies to be likewise for MBT technologies.

At the end of the day, if you want to make a comparison, you need to make assumptions which may or may not be correct. sure you can argue a poor GI have chipped off paint from a M1A2 which then compromise the armor by allowing it to be exposed by chemicals after being washed and therefore have a different armor rating than the M1A2 parked next to it a la the butterfly theory.

You simply will never get an apple to apple comparison as each apple is inherently different, but does it mean that you cannot compare an apple from the US to an apple from Ukraine?

 

[IronsightSniper]

They look at it, think about it, make something for it, doesn't mean it'll work.

 

[challenge]

ERA protect tank does not means sure protection,during the 2006 israel invasion of lebanon, Hezbollah use latest version of russian supplied ATGM and RPG-22 all fitted with tandeem warhead were able to destroy ERA protected israel tank, (even the merkava-4) at will.
already the russian displayed a tandeem warhead 125mm HEAT rd. in dubai during the late 90's.
T-72 glacis plate is make up of hard steel,fibre glass,but during the 1991 desert storm, M-829 DU rd.s has no problem penetrating T-72 glacis plate.in fact there's I seen a picture of burn out iraqi T-72 (concord press) hit from M-829 round ,the round enter just below the driver hatch and existed through the rear engine compartment, the entire engine are completely brew away.
but there's is one case, during the 2002 invasion of iraq, british challenger-2 was hit by a t-55 APC round at 50 feet away! that's point blank range,the round hit the ERA protected glacis plate and survive.but not T-55, in turn it was destroyed by other challenger -2 .

 

[rhino123]

They look at it, think about it, make something for it, doesn't mean it'll work.

Doesn't mean it will not work too. Plus when the designer claimed something, obviously stringent tests had been performed on it, rather than just come out and tell the world, "Yeah, we look at what our opponent had, think about what they have and design something that might work."

 

[plawolf]

Estimates, pictures, analysis, etc.

So...its a complete guess then?

I expected as much.

It makes perfect sense. ERA is designed to be destroyed but it's effectiveness is measured at how much of the projectile it takes out. What I'm simply stating is that Relikt will do no good against M829A3.

Implications and Inferring are different than what I'm actually saing, I'll tell you what I mean.

Well I see what the problem is - you clearly have no idea how ERA is supposed to work.

There is no ERA ever developed that will stop a full blooded tank round by itself, and since you clearly are saying ERA does no good if it cannot stop a tank round by itself, it means you have no idea what you are talking about.

What a waste of time.

 

[Lezt]

ERA protect tank does not means sure protection,during the 2006 israel invasion of lebanon, Hezbollah use latest version of russian supplied ATGM and RPG-22 all fitted with tandeem warhead were able to destroy ERA protected israel tank, (even the merkava-4) at will.
already the russian displayed a tandeem warhead 125mm HEAT rd. in dubai during the late 90's.
T-72 glacis plate is make up of hard steel,fibre glass,but during the 1991 desert storm, M-829 DU rd.s has no problem penetrating T-72 glacis plate.in fact there's I seen a picture of burn out iraqi T-72 (concord press) hit from M-829 round ,the round enter just below the driver hatch and existed through the rear engine compartment, the entire engine are completely brew away.
but there's is one case, during the 2002 invasion of iraq, british challenger-2 was hit by a t-55 APC round at 50 feet away! that's point blank range,the round hit the ERA protected glacis plate and survive.but not T-55, in turn it was destroyed by other challenger -2 .

Challenge, several things, we agree that any armor can be penetrated including ERA and DU.

It is kinda pointless comparing an export/reverse engineered T72 with less capable systems from the early 80s to an american army version MBT of 1991. it is like, what results would you expect some early generation M60 meets a russian spec T80 or T90 in combat; or for sake of argument, what if it meets a German army Leo 2A4 or a British army Challenger?

And the T55 100 mm gun from ww2, a tank from the 1950s faces one from 1990s? I am not surprised that the Challenger was intact. It is like trying to draw a conclusion from having a Mark III male tank from 1917 facing a Sherman from 1943.

 

[IronsightSniper]

So...its a complete guess then?

I expected as much.

It's better than, "Hey look, Type 99 weighs fitty tonnes, it must be super protected!" :china:

Well I see what the problem is - you clearly have no idea how ERA is supposed to work.

There is no ERA ever developed that will stop a full blooded tank round by itself, and since you clearly are saying ERA does no good if it cannot stop a tank round by itself, it means you have no idea what you are talking about.

What a waste of time.

Thank you for conceding your point, that is EXACTLY what I meant all this time. Relikt ERA will blow up, scratch the incoming M829A3 a bit, but will not severely degrade it's perforating abilities in a slightest bit. That's what I wanted you to understand all this time.